Hydrogen might be making a comeback

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by pilotgrrl, Jul 5, 2018.

  1. pilotgrrl

    pilotgrrl Senior Member

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    According to more than 900 automotive executives surveyed, there will not be a single solitary drivetrain technology by 2040—executives project an almost even split by 2040: BEVs at 26 percent, FCEVs at 25 percent, internal combustion engine (ICEs) at 25 percent, and hybrids at 24 percent.

    The Hydrogen Council—an industry-led effort to develop the hydrogen economy—says that hydrogen could meet 18 percent of the world’s final energy demand in 2050, if governments, industry, and investors increase and coordinate efforts to remove cost and scale barriers.

    The Most Overlooked Renewable Energy Source | OilPrice.com

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
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  2. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    I have no doubt hydrogen will find its uses.
    Primarily in centralized fleet services such as delivery trucks, or building level storage of excess solar or wind production.
    For private vehicle use, I just don't see it happening without huge government expenditures.
     
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  3. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Co-Exist should be an expectation.

    With such a variety of clean resources available, it makes no sense to force a single solution... especially for such diverse needs.
     
  4. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    To a point.
    It makes sense to use hydrogen where it is advantageous.
    But just as I don't put the most efficient wind generator in my yard (a 250 meter tower just doesn't make sense in a residential suburban home), building out a hugely expensive infrastructure to get slightly more efficient than a hybrid doesn't make sense.

    Fleet vehicles? Absolutely as the infrastructure is far cheaper and the efficiency gains are much more.
     
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  5. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The other One Percenter.....

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    Since I couldn't find a picture of das Hindenburg....what's the latest thinking on the efficiency and range of Hydrogen?

    I remember that my company had an unfortunate dalliance with NGVs that left their fleeters with a really bad hangover.
    The problem wasn't really cost but rather range and refueling - which for FLEET vehicles is pretty important.

    I know that the Mirai only has about a 300 mile range, but how long does it take to refill?
    How much energy does it take to produce hydrogen?
    (We used a nuclear powered device that produced H on submarines but we diffused it overboard and kept the O2)

    I like an all of the above transportation model, but I really think that FCVs have some stiff headwinds with everybody's current attention towards BEVs.
     
  6. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    The current passenger vehicles are 20%-30% more efficient than the most efficient hybrid (Prius:)).
    Hydrogen has some advantages over NG, as there is no odor, it isn't toxic, and it rises, rather quickly.
    The biggest safety issue I see is the high pressure tanks required to store gaseous hydrogen.

    If excess renewable energy is used, hydrogen is very efficient. But only if you consider the wind generators, for example, are simply off if the energy isn't needed.
    However, the faster, cheaper way to make hydrogen is splitting it off of a fossil fuel, such as NG.

    Of course, this is something some people are trying to get away from, reliance on fossil fuels. But because it is cheaper and quicker, this is the way I expect most hydrogen for personal transport to get produced.
     
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  7. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The other One Percenter.....

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    I can't really brain that well this morning, but if you strip off the H from NG.....what's that like?
    What's left over when you use something like steam reforming?

    If all you're doing is drilling for petroleum and then converting it into H...or....using electrolysis which is rather inefficient...what's the real advantage of FCVs?
    NIMBY?
     
  8. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    The oil companies can still play a big role in the market ;)
    That is the cynical side of me, but that is how I see it.
     
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    At a station up to date with the latest SAE protocols, and the refilling pumps are fully primed with completely chilled hydrogen, it should take 3 minutes to fill about 5kg of hydrogen into a 10k psi tank. But...if things aren't ready to go, or if it is simply hot out, it will take longer. As long as 15 minutes under the SAE standard.

    Exact figures, I don't know, but if using renewable electric, a plug in car will make more efficient use of the energy. Charging a battery is going to be more efficient than electrolysis of water, and that is before we take into account all the pressurizing, chilling, and movement of the hydrogen that goes on in order to get it into a car.

    To be fair, excess renewable electric production won't always occur when people are charging a car; it wouldn't be excess then. So hydrogen could be of benefit has energy storage. That doesn't mitigate to problems with using it as vehicle fuel. It will be cheaper and easier to simply make and store it on site at a power plant, fuel cell or turbine, for providing electricity during renewable production lulls, than to move cars around.

    For vehicles, excess renewables can be used to make natural gas, diesel, methanol, and possibly gasoline.

    Now, not using hydrogen for vehicle fuel does not eliminate the fuel cell from vehicle use. They can run on other fuels.

    Natural gas(methane) is odorless too. The odorant added to the supply is a safety feature to allow early detection of leaks. Such a low tech leak detection method isn't possible in hydrogen FCEVs. The gas needs to be pure in order to not damage the fuel cell; the ordorant in NG is actually a sulfur compound.

    Part of the expense of a hydrogen FCEV is in the leak detection sensors.
    In steam reforming the NG and water are broken apart to produce hydrogen and carbon dioxide. I suspect capturing that CO2 is easier than removing it from turbine exhaust, but it is still an added cost if done. If not, then reforming the NG is as bad as burning it in terms of global warming.

    A hydrogen FCEV will shift the emission production of cars from residential areas to a remote central area, where they should be easier to deal with. Just like BEVs. They do have a refuel advantage for long distance shipping and transportation, though that comes down available infrastructure. A semi or bus is going to hold more than 5kg of hydrogen, but a hydrogen station might be more viable over a quick charge one for such BEV vehicles at some locations.

    Fuel cells might become a viable replacement for the ICE in PHEVs. But not if they use hydrogen. The high pressure tanks are space eaters in a personal vehicle even without a larger plug in battery.
     
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  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    Source: Nel ASA awarded multi-billion NOK contract for 448 electrolyzers (1 GW) by Nikola Motor - Green Car Congress

    Nel ASA has been awarded a contract for delivery of 448 electrolyzers and associated fueling equipment to Nikola Motor Company (Nikola) as part of Nikola’s development of a hydrogen station infrastructure in the US for truck and passenger vehicles.
    . . .
    A-Range Atmospheric Alkaline Electrolyzer. . . . Cell stack power consumption is down to 3.8 kWh/Nm³ H₂.
    . . .

    Source:
    Universal Industrial Gases, Inc. ... Hydrogen Unit Conversion (gas, liquid)

    1 kg = 11.126 Nm3

    So now we can figure out how much electricity is needed to make 1 kg of hydrogen:

    42.28 kWh/kg = 3.8 kWh/Nm3 * 11.126 Nm3

    We can now compare and contrast what happens if 42.28 kWh making 1 kg of 1 bar, hydrogen is used to charge a battery versus a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle:
    • Honda Clarity fuel-cell vehicle - 366 miles on 5.46 kg = 230.8 kWh
    • Tesla Model 3 - 26 kWh/100 mi * (366 mi / 100 mi) = 95.2 kWh
    So charging a battery instead of electrolysis will give 230.8 kWh / 95.2 kWh = 2.42 times further versus using electrolysis. Note that I did not include the energy to compress Nm3 hydrogen to 700 bar, ~13% of the hydrogen energy:
    • 230.8 kWh at 1 bar
    • 260.8 kWh at 700 bar = 230.8 kWh + (13% * 230.8 kWh)
    This changes the ratio to 260.8 kWh / 95.2 kWh = 2.74 times further charging a battery over hydrogen at 700 bar.

    . . . .

    New information: Watch Time-Lapse Of Tesla Model 3 Supercharging From 0 - 100%

    The complete charge took 1:48h and gave the vehicle a range of 504 kilometers (313 miles). Additionally, it juiced up the battery with 75kWh with a max charge rate of a whopping 117 kW.
    . . .
    The full charge – as reported by the owner – will set him back a total of $18.98. . . .


    Now we can compare the costs of driving 313 miles of a Honda Clarity fuel cell vehicle versus 313 miles for a Tesla Model 3:
    • 4.67 kg = 5.45 kg * (313 mi /366 mi)
    • $74.72 = 4.67 kg * $16 / kg ## Honda Clarity 313 miles
    • $18.98 ## Model 3 for 313 miles
    • 3.9 = $74.72 / $18.98
    The higher, retail price ratio, ~3.9 times versus ~2.74, comes because hydrogen is manually shipped to the retail, hydrogen fuel stations, where the local tanks are charged or exchanged (assuming the H{2} trailer remains.) In contrast, the electrical grid does not manually ship every kWh to the retail chargers. The one time, electrical installation is used over and over again without paying someone to deliver.

    One last point is charging time from the YouTube video:
    [​IMG]
    • 15 min -> 100 miles
    • 30 min -> 200 miles
    • 45 min -> 250 miles
    • 60 min -> 275 miles
    The fastest strategy is to add enough to reach the next charger + 10% safety factor. Approaching the next charger, adjust speed as necessary to reach it.

    Bob Wilson
     
  11. pilotgrrl

    pilotgrrl Senior Member

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    Toyota is already using hydrogen in fleet vehicles at a shipping port in California.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  12. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    IIRC, they were reforming natural gas on site for the two trucks. Just switching to burning the NG in an engine would result in greatly reduced emissions in comparison to a diesel model for a fraction of the cost.
     
  13. pilotgrrl

    pilotgrrl Senior Member

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    That's a good idea. But it reminds me of the natural gas rental cars people would get stuck with at DEN when they ran out of gasoline cars. Gas stations with natural gas pumps were few and far between back then.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    They are far more common than a hydrogen station.;)
    Frito-Lays(I think) switched to NG for a common route, and installed their own stations.
    NG has some of the same issues as hydrogen when it comes to car design, but there is literally millions of miles of NG lines running through the US. That is a huge head start over hydrogen.
     
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  15. pilotgrrl

    pilotgrrl Senior Member

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    Back in the late '90s and early '00s, natural gas wasn't common for fueling cars. The gas company, electric company and others used it, but they tended to have their own fueling stations on premises. It was all about reducing the brown cloud.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
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