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Hydrogen vs. Battery Electric Cars

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by Tideland Prius, Aug 21, 2021.

  1. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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  2. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    BEST THING: no mention of fuel cell water exhaust.

    Her claim about relative efficiency ā€˜2-to-1ā€™ BEV over fuel cell highlighted the inefficiency of some non-Tesla BEVs.

    As for home vs renter charging, change the building code to require charging at new properties and a generous upgrade path for legacy rentals. It would be cheaper than building subsidized hydrogen fuel stations.

    Iā€™m not offended by this piece but living in Alabama, keeping my Tesla.

    Bob Wilson
     
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i hope joe puts the kibosh on hydrogen subsidies, and moves the investment to solar
     
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  4. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    No youtube for me, so back to the spreadsheets :)

    Hydrogen tanks are 5,000 or 10,000 psi. Will fueling infrastructure be build out for the higher? Tanks are as impact-resistant as they are. Find out those things elsewhere. The higher stores an energy density of about 7 megaJoules per liter volume.

    Lithium rechargeable batteries store an energy density of about 1 megaJoules per liter volume. That is highest # I found promptly. Perhaps this interesting disparity is in youtube video?

    Battery technology may continue to improve like Moore's law. A factor of 7 will take time, but many industries are looking for (investing in) that. Nobody is telling me that hydrogen energy storage has a Moore-path.

    But wait, there's more (Moore!). These transportation platforms both have energy storage and electric motors. The hydrogen version also adds a fuel cell. It adds cost, weight, volume, and includes a sprinkling of platinum.

    So it appears that H2 wins energy density now, but complete systems may go the other way. How many lithium vehicles are there now - 10 million? How many hydrogen vehicles are there now - 10 thousand? The battle for future transportation starts from here and with tech (physics) limitations that cannot all be removed by optimistic videos.
     
  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    the battle ended awhile ago, some folk just don't know it yet.

    beyond toyota, and their political flunkies, not many are thinking about hydrogen for personal transportation
     
  6. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    I have in my hand a 12 volt LI poly battery that claims 20 amp-hours on its label. I have yet to confirm that latter value, but considering its country of manufacture it might be 'generous'.

    But, based on size its power density is about 590 watt-hours. Claimed. This is twice the value I (found on internet and ) used earlier for power density comparison to pressurized hydrogen gas. So, had I looked at this on-hand item earlier I would have said hydrogen has a much smaller power density advantage.
     
  7. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    there is some danger with batteries as well, as we pack them with more punch
     
  8. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Lithium battery fires are not very rare and they are very good for internet clicks.

    The battery package I have does calmly source 40 watts as desired. I would gain no benefit, but potential harm, to test if it can source 1000 watts.

    Lithium cars (and airplanes) need very fast discharge for their operating space. To not cause delays they also need very fast recharge. Water-based heat export is engineered to manage that.

    The latest ding on lithium is recall of all Nissan Leafs because LG provided inadequate batteries.