Hyndai's and Kia's being dinged for fudging MPG's why not Toyota?

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Fuel Economy' started by rainmaster, Nov 2, 2012.

  1. dhancock

    dhancock 2 Prius Family

    Joined:
    May 21, 2007
    357
    40
    0
    Location:
    Hamburg, NY (Buffalo area)
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    The link that John Hatchett provided above shows that for (at least) 2011 they tested ONLY ONE VEHICLE for the Prius for 2011. Now, I don't know what the model was, but it makes no sense to use a model that gets 10% lower mileage and represent that for the entire line!
     
  2. dhancock

    dhancock 2 Prius Family

    Joined:
    May 21, 2007
    357
    40
    0
    Location:
    Hamburg, NY (Buffalo area)
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    "MAGIC TIRES"???? Nothing "magic" about those tires, except that they are wider, have a better grip, and are NOT low rolling resistance.
     
  3. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2005
    12,536
    2,102
    1
    Location:
    SF Bay Area, CA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    I'm not clear how many Prius liftbacks and configurations they tested given the various values for Test Veh Cnfg Num. Some other vehicles only have a single value for that field (e.g. Aston Martins at top, Audi Q5 and Q7). Even if they tested only one, how do you know they didn't test the Prius model Five and applied the mileage from that to the entire line?

    Again, think about it. If they offered 17" wheels w/solar roof, pushing the weight up and presumably FE down, Toyota may have been forced to use the mileage from that and apply it to the entire line. And, that value may have been below the magic 50 mpg.

    I also think your 10% is an exaggeration given the difference noted on the European test cycles (which are also in larger Imperial gallons). See 17" wheels - effect on mpg ? | PriusChat.
     
  4. a priori

    a priori Canonus Curiosus

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2007
    3,083
    405
    23
    Location:
    Chicagoland (West)
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    V
    Yes, the tires are wider. Whether they have a better grip than the various 15" tires is an open question. Also, the Model V has shipped with many different tires, but each one is LRR -- at least they were in 2010.

    I ran my OEM Toyos to 60,000 miles. These were LRR tires, and I achieved a 50 MPG average across every one of those miles. I didn't like the tires, and I've replaced them with Michelins (also LRR). The Michelins are quieter and have immeasurably greater road feel and real grip. They also give me lower fuel economy.
     
  5. kgall

    kgall Active Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2009
    984
    149
    2
    Location:
    Olympic Peninsula, WA
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    At various times, folks like Bob Wilson and others have posted the rules for the EPA tests--the specific patterns of driving that are supposed to be used in these tests. These have been very useful to read--for example, we were told when a cycle with air conditioning was added.
    I DON'T remember anyone posting the rules on what differences in models/configurations must be tested and rated sepearately, or what equipment has to be on the cars they test. For example, it never seemed to me that they would separately test cars with different option packages, even though these might add weight.
    So, I can't say right now if they NEEDED to test the Prius V separately.
    Anyone have these rules for posting?
     
  6. a priori

    a priori Canonus Curiosus

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2007
    3,083
    405
    23
    Location:
    Chicagoland (West)
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    V
    Just for the sake of clarity, because people may not have followed the entire string, we are talking here about whether there should have been a different EPA number for the liftback/hatchback Prius Model V (Five). The Prius v (wagon) is tested separately.
     
    JimboPalmer likes this.
  7. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    19,011
    4,053
    50
    Location:
    Grass Valley, CA.
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Trust me, they are magic when it comes to FE. None of the other tires available in that size can touch it. Keep in mind that the tires are built to Toyota's specifications, not Toyo's. Thus they are LRR. Nearly every passenger car OE tire is LRR to some extent to help achieve CAFE standards. Otis one of the reasons the tread wear life is so low. You cannot have terrific traction, great FE and long tread life without costing an arm and a leg because of exotic materials being used in creation. :)
     
    WE0H likes this.
  8. Jonny Zero

    Jonny Zero Giggidy

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2012
    1,388
    350
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    GM disputed the Cd rating of a Prius Five.
    Vehicle Electrification - November 4, 2010
    They tested it to be .30

    I don't know if Toyota just pencil whipped the same Cd for all models. I have no problem getting more than 50mpg combined rating on my Five, after the first 2,500 mile break-in for both the car and the driver.:p
     
  9. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    11,848
    6,064
    0
    Location:
    Greenwood MS USA
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    My memory is dim, but this is the way I recall it.

    Toyota has a stationary car in a wind tunnel, the wheels are not revolving. This is MUCH easier but not as realistic.
    GM rotates the wheels at the speed the air is going around the car, this is considerably more difficult but also more realistic.

    However, and this is the point of contention, you will get different results each way. GM does not say that Toyota faked the results, GM says if you use their version of the test, you get better results for the Volt than for the Prius 5.
     
  10. ahmeow

    ahmeow Prius Lover

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2010
    366
    70
    0
    Location:
    North CA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    Those copy cat brands car tried their dirty way to push their sales.
    Now the ballon is punched.
     
  11. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Titanic Social Director

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    36,250
    25,073
    80
    Location:
    Greater Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    As far as fudging mileage numbers, the in-dash indication on my 2010 is erring on average by 8%. This is with over 27000 km's calculated.

    Many owners just rely on this in-dash incication, don't calculate, and tell anyone who asks about their mileage these inflated values. Supposedly it's improved with the latest model year, at least with the new Prius c and v models, maybe the regular Prius as well.
     
  12. Jonny Zero

    Jonny Zero Giggidy

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2012
    1,388
    350
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    My 2012 is still inflated. Check the fill ups on my Fuelly page, I note the MFD reading there.
    It is a shame. I am hoping if we whine enough they will release a firmware update to fix it.
     
  13. JimN

    JimN Let the games begin!

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2006
    7,028
    1,101
    0
    Location:
    South Jersey
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    V
    If I only got the EPA estimate I would cry. If you (all) really believe the V or Five has a 10% penalty then I should have a lifetime 60mpg average driving a lower model. I don't think so.
     
  14. Codyroo

    Codyroo Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2007
    1,826
    509
    6
    Location:
    Pleasanton, Ca
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    For the 2.5 years I've had my car, my two worst tanks were 52 mpg each. I'd be pissed if I got the EPA rated 50 mpg.
     
  15. jdcollins5

    jdcollins5 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2009
    5,131
    1,300
    0
    Location:
    Wilmington, NC
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    I understand that the others are getting dinged for fudging EPA estimates but I agree that Toyota should be dinged for fudging the average MPG estimate on our cars.
     
  16. Jonny Zero

    Jonny Zero Giggidy

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2012
    1,388
    350
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    Problem is, the MPG readouts in the cars are not regulated.
     
  17. jdcollins5

    jdcollins5 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2009
    5,131
    1,300
    0
    Location:
    Wilmington, NC
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    As much as I am against too much government regulation, I think this is something that should be regulated since it is obvious that the car companies are not going to do it on their own. You should not have to calculate the mpg to determine if the displayed mpg is correct or not.
     
  18. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    11,627
    2,511
    8
    Location:
    Southwest Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    1, Toyota does not warranty the nut behind the wheel.
    2, Hyundai's transgression was incorrect reporting of the EPA test. For all I know, Hyundai car meters are even less accurate than the Prius.
     
  19. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    14,487
    2,965
    0
    Location:
    Fort Lee, NJ
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    It think 51 City / 48 Highway and 50 Combined is for Prius Five with 17" wheels.

    PiP only comes with 15" wheels and it is rated 51 City / 49 Highway despite being 150 lbs heavier. I think the City figure should've been higher if not from the extra weight and the Highway gain is probably from the 15" wheels.
     
  20. Jonny Zero

    Jonny Zero Giggidy

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2012
    1,388
    350
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    I think you are correct. I have no trouble hitting the EPA numbers. With some effort, I hit 56-57. I just have trouble hitting 60+ like the folks with the 15 inch wheels.

    I think the rating for Five is correct, for the others, underrated.
     
Loading...
Similar Threads - Hyndai's Kia's being
  1. MPGnutcase
    Replies:
    34
    Views:
    3,468