Featured Hyundai IONIQ - Prius competitor?

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by GasperG, Dec 8, 2015.

  1. GasperG

    GasperG Active Member

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    I think we can't argue that IONIQ is a competitive package, but in the end it's up to the manufacturer to make, market and sell cars. A good car won't sell by it self. And it's also up to the manufacturer to scale the production up, Hyundai is scaling up but they still have a long way to go.

    It's also a little worrying to hear that profit from Hyundai/Kia is in decline.

    I have found global sales figures for Hyundai:
    https://www.hyundai.com/worldwide/en/about-hyundai/ir/ir-activities/sales-performance

    IONIQ HEV:
    2017 - January-May: 19,000 units
    2018 - January-May: 23,727 units (Prius ~80,000)

    IONIQ PHEV:
    2018 - January-May: 4,835 units (Prius Prime/PHV: 20,884)

    Is it or is it not a worthy competitor? I would say it is.
     
  2. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

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    Yes - some markets particularly - here in Australia, owning a hybrid is about as welcome as having leprosy - people think you need therapy or burial. Then you tell them that PRIUS is the biggest selling car in Japan, that in California they were all the rage a decade ago but that they've progressed to PHEVs and EVs now. They seem amazed, as they never see them on the road here - where the best 3 selling "cars" are agricultural trucks (HiLux/Tacoma et al).

    The reason PHEVs haven't sold here - nobody has offered them except BENZ/BMW/AUDI or Mitsubishi in a truck. I'd have bought one 2 yrs ago (but not a 4 seater), but had to compromise with a PRIUS.
     
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  3. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    I haven't driven the Ioniq, but there is one huge factor here.

    The Ioniq Plug-In isn't as good as a PHEV as the Prius Prime (just based on how much power it has in EV mode), but it was designed around its battery, whereas the Prius Prime was designed for half of the battery that it actually got, resulting in massively compromised packaging.

    I'd guess that between the Ioniq and Prius PHEVs, the Prius is the better PHEV, the Ioniq is the better car.

    Once you remove PHEV from the equation, the Prime's drawbacks go away, and the Prius is the better hybrid and the better car.
     
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  4. Bluecar1

    Bluecar1 Active Member

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    can't argue as I don't know enough about the prius plugin,

    but I think the the prius and the Ioniq are more equal at the hybrid level, which is slightly ahead is debateable as it is so subjective
     
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  5. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

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    Not sure about details in other stomping grounds, but what I suspect here:
    • Hybrids PRIUS & IONIQ hybrids will be more or less competitive - Hyundai will trump Toyota's warranty by nearly double (5yr vs 3yr), driveability of PRIUS is reputed better than IONIQ's DCT at least in congested areas;
    • PHEV - IONIQ will win by a huge margin - because TOYOTA isn't here - and is only 4 seats - which isn't likely to attract Aussies;
    • EV - same as PHEV - no TOYOTA - LEAF will be the only competitor.
    Attitude - because of bias within the motoring press, IONIQ might win. Though not having arrived here yet, has been welcomed already by the press with comments like "at least it looks "normal"" - they've always commented about the looks of PRIUS even from GEN 2. Show them an ugly truck or SUV - and they're in raptures - go figure!!
     
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  6. farmecologist

    farmecologist Senior Member

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    Looks like we also have the Honda Insight hybrid entering the market ( no PHEV..yet ) . Looks like an extremely good package and a worthy competitor to the Prius and Ioniq.
     
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  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Considering what other manufacturers are offing in terms of hybrids, PHEVs, and/or BEVs, I don't see how the Ioniq can be too little too late.
     
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  8. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    U.S. sales figures beg to differ.
     
  9. Bluecar1

    Bluecar1 Active Member

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    so in the next 12-24 months the market looks like it will be getting crowded,

    so in about 2 years both the Ioniq and the current Prius should be due mid life face lift and upgrades at about the time of all the new competitors

    both will be the more established players so should be ok

    will be interesting to see any changes in spec to try and get the advantage over each over and the new kids (choice and competition is good)

    biggest question will be with LG Chem struggling with demand for batteries (and only a few other battery manufacturers) where is all the additional battery manufacturing capacity going to come from?
     
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  10. Bluecar1

    Bluecar1 Active Member

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    main issue holding the Ioniq numbers back has been battery supply,

    it would be interesting to see how many would have been sold with no supply chain limitations, Canada EV wait times have been 6-12 months, now beginning to drop, US EV and plugin only available in California, and limited supplied of hybrid across the country

    Europe still supply issues for EV, plugin and hybrid near normal lead times

    UK figures show numbers still risng

    ioniq registrations UK.PNG
     
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  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    If you haven't noticed, Prius sales are so hot either. If the current trend continues, Toyota won't sell 50k Prii in the US this year. That isn't good for a few year old redesign of an established model that once sold over 100k a year.

    In addition to supply issues, the Ioniq is a car in a SUV market. The Niro is doing much better. As is, the Rav4 hybrid. Then gas prices have always kept hybrid sales low in the US. The new Insight isn't going to do real well either.
     
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  12. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

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    As mentioned by @Bluecar1 - it's supply - just aren't enough being made to fill demand.

    That has been the reason given why it hasn't even arrived in Australia yet (**). It's not like Hyundai to lag far behind getting models here - the i30N Hot Hatch & SantaFe were here soon after arriving elsewhere in the world, but IONIQ - now pushed back to September - it's in the "I'll believe it when I see it" category now.

    (**) - there was a small flock of IONIQs brought here for fleet appraisal earlier this year - 70 only, I believe, and are in use mainly by Red Cross Blood Bank and one state government.
     
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  13. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    Right. I can't comment on the non-U.S. market. But too little demand or supply is still too little.

    Look at the rank in the U.S. for all three (hybrid, PHEV, and BEV). As for too late: the hybrid is widely available in the U.S. and still only ranked 9th in hybrid sales. So it's not a supply issue there either.
    I might have been the only one in this conversation who has, which is why I made the comment. The hybrid market remains relatively small, but they are still #1.

    https://www.hybridcars.com/may-2018-sales-dashboard/
     
  14. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

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    PRIUS is almost extinct in Australia - the vast majority of hybrids sold are CAMRYs - (hybrid outselling petrol apparently, though I can't find confirmation).

    [May sales here - Petrol 62,519, diesel 36,758, hybrid 1374 and EV 103]
     
  15. Bluecar1

    Bluecar1 Active Member

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    the hybrids seem capped at about 1200-1300 cars a month and what we are seeing on the other forum is that they are still hard to get hold of with little stock in the system in the US, they are sold pretty much as soon as they arrive at showroom / lot. so the hybrid is also limited by availability, but more of them arrive each month compared to plugin and EV

    the MY2019 version do seem to be coming through quicker and rumours are LG Chem have increased battery supply, as we are seeing lead times in Canada starting to decrease for the EV

    and from the figures in the link above it seems the Ioniq is selling about 1/3 of the number of the Prius, which should be enough for Toyota to take notice, especially seeing as it is a new entrant into the market only 2 years ago
     
  16. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    If someone has a link to total U.S. inventory of the Ioniq hybrid and time on lots to compare with other Hyundai vehicles, please post.

    I searched prior to making my initial comment and again just now: my local area and various Hyundai dealerships by random State and clicked on a random dealership that came up. Results showed at least 2 Ioniqs on inventory and most had more, some with a dozen or more. I have a bit more interest in this that most as my folks are very interested in the Ioniq PHEV which is supply constrained, but I am not seeing that with the hybrid. Those hybrids sit on the lots around here and do not seem to turn over quickly at all, whereas the PHEVs, although not scooped up immediately, move faster, at about 5-10 days on local lots here.

    Technology is also a part of the demand constraint of the "too little to late" problem. More competition is certainly welcome to challenge the Prius and others. Buyers love options and it drives prices down. But the Ioniq hybrid, which has many similar specs to the Prius (once a technology champion in its glory days), is now playing in a small (growth) stagnant field where hybrid technology is no longer cutting edge. Those pioneers who snapped up the early hybrids continue to want the latest eco tech and have already moved on to PHEVs and BEVs. There is still theoretically plenty of room to sell these to the broader market, but there must be price parity with ICE vehicles or punitive gasoline prices to do so at the current price delta.

    The Ioniq PHEV could probably sell considerably better if they could deliver more, but would doubtful become top 3 at its current price. It's a great vehicle, but doesn't offer enough at its price.

    Unless the out-the-door price can get down substantially, regardless of supply, the Ioniq EV is also too late to the party. The limited range is still great as a second car for many people. But it offers only slightly more range than the retired generation 1 Leaf without a lucrative price.

    Tastes for the size/type of vehicles has also changed. Unless gas prices take off much more, the market for efficient vehicles of the Prius and Ionic size/class will remain limited.

    Considering these things, that is why I think the Kona EV has a great shot of getting Hyundai into the top 3-5 ranking in the BEV segment once widely available here and not supply constrained. It enters an expanding crossover segment and can take a lead as currently few offer a ~250 mile BEV vehicle at this lowest price point.
     
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  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    First off, being available nation wide doesn't mean you can't have supply issues. Hyundai could simply have chosen to continue the rollout instead of limiting shipments to certain areas.

    The supply issue is because the car was more popular than they expected. While the Ioniq is included in a 0% financing deal, they have not had to put cash on the hood to sell them. There is currently $500 cash back on Prius here, and that amount has been higher in the past.

    Not likely for long. The Rav4h could have surpassed it last month. As could the Fusionh, though discounts are a factor there.
    Inventory has it for subscribers

    North America is not the only car market, and it won't be the top one for much longer. People are turning from diesels to hybrids in Europe, and I think hybrids are popular in India. Every car sold in China is going to be at least a hybrid in the near future. Hybrid sales in the US have always been a tough sell in the US because of our fuel prices, but the Ioniq is a global car.

    In the past, an acceptable, full power, parallel hybrid was a challenge to design. That is where Hyundai focused the technology. Going forward it may come to dominate the market in time because of cost and other advantages. It won't do a full EV PHEV well though.

    I would not call the Ioniq Electric's range limited. It is 25% more than what the gen1 Leaf finally got. Then the lower price of a used Leaf may not be worth the questions over the condition of its battery. The larger battery packs in it are even losing capacity faster than the shorter range ones. The new Leaf has longer range than the Ioniq, but still using that passive air cooling system.

    At this point in time, the majority of BEVs are being bought as second cars. They could be the main car of the household, but the household still has a gasser in the stable. I wouldn't get a Bolt, and not has another car. The state of the fast DC charging network isn't on par with the Supercharger one, and the available chargers are slower. A 125 mile range increases the amount of households that can consider a BEV as a second car, an the Ioniq does start below $30k.

    The Ioniq Electric is far better than what Toyota is offering in terms of a BEV. And while the Prime sells more, with discounts, Hyundai did a far better job designing the platform the plug in models.
     
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  18. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    Absolutely. That’s why I researched first to see that it wasn’t that kind of supply issue as I noted “I searched prior to making my initial comment and again just now: my local area and various Hyundai dealerships by random State and clicked on a random dealership that came up. Results showed at least 2 Ioniqs on inventory and most had more, some with a dozen or more.”

    It’s possible and must happen at some point, but we can only go on the latest available data and that’s what the data says. Toyota/Prius has been king in this segment for plenty long and it’s days as champion seem long numbered. As you pointed out, they already look anemic. If someone can grow the hybrid segment and take the crown in the process, that would be great.

    Certainly. My comment was only regarding the U.S. market which is why the comment about the Kona EV apparently “coming this fall” - the case for the U.S.. Different markets have different needs, supply issues, demand issues, incentives, and buyer psychologies, to name a few.

    You or I, or many enthusiasts on these boards probably would not call the Ioniq Electric range limited. Convincing a broad swath of the public seems a different matter.

    15.9% more technically (107 miles advertised the last 2 years on the Leaf 30 kWh battery versions in 2016 and 2017 vs. 124 miles for the Ioniq EV. Compare that to the 2018 Leaf which has 21.8% more advertised range than the Ioniq EV.

    We have a 2016 Leaf with a 30kWh battery and had it replaced under warranty a few months ago for a brand new unit. The possibility of that happening was one of several reasons we leased. Fortunately, the battery is warrantied for 8 years and at the rate of BEV technology change, we knew there would be something much better before then, so the inferior Leaf BMS/cooling system has not remained an issue and allowed us to get into a BEV for less money.

    This is perhaps true on both counts in most States, but not here. I have access to and use the many more CHAdeMO charging stations. Plug my city into plugshare to see that the CHAdeMO ratio to supercharger is quite high. Yes, the speed is a big deal for long distance travel and makes CHAdeMO look pathetic. But we fly when we have to travel 400+ miles, so it’s not an issue for us.


    Also, in a few years we may have rapid charging technology that makes the Supercharging network look sluggish by comparison.

    Nothing personal against the Ioniq BEV. If it’s the right car for someone, (s)he should get it.

    But the the starting MSRP on the 151 mile Leaf is also significantly below $30k ($29,990 MSRP). To the MSRP subtract the incentives to be had on that too besides the usual fed and State stuff. For example, Nissan currently has $2,000 factory rebates. They still get 2 years free DC fast charging too. In just a few months the Leaf 60+kWh battery version should be out so it would be very reasonable to expect deeper discounts on the 151 mile range Leaf then.

    Indeed. I just don't see them hitting a segment sales home run until the Kona EV. I will be cheering for them.
     
  19. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    How useful and practical is that? Somehow I don't see myself going to some dealer or charging station and waiting the required amount of time for a DC charge to give me say another 80 miles. Even being a fill at half full guy, I've spent less than 40 hours total at a gas station waiting for fuel in 5+ years.

    The CA charging environment is probably quite different from the rest of the country.
     
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  20. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

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    Even with my PRIUS - the first comment most people make (bear in mind Hybrid is almost space-ship status here) "How far will it get on a charge" - when I say a kilometre or maybe 2, they just don't understand. When I show them my dashboard and it shows something like this (was a very good week - averages 4.1)
    upload_2018-7-13_10-17-9.png

    (that's 63, 65, 71 and 62 US MPG)
    they scratch their heads and ponder - then I explain the hybrid process - not sure they understand it, but at least they don't ask too many stupid questions. And seem impressed.

    I'm not sure - fuel prices here have risen sharply (plus 50%) in the last few months - might make Hybrids, PHEVs and EVs more attractive when it sinks in that $1.60/litre is now the norm, not $1.00.
     
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