Featured Hyundai IONIQ - Prius competitor?

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by GasperG, Dec 8, 2015.

  1. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    Depends. For example, I'm taking my son to a soccer tournament in Reno in a few weeks. We plan to take the Leaf. That's one 30 min stop on the way. There are several CHAdeMO units between here and Reno, so lots of options. Then we destination charge there so no delay on arrival. Some with the smaller Leaf battery do it, but most would not want to.

    l'm ok with that. As mentioned, I would not want to do that on long trips even if possible, which it is not. But again, would fly. It's not for everyone.

    Yes, there are tons of CHAdeMO chargers within my driving range.
     
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  2. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

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    Depends on where it is. One news report here said that Jaguar is installing 100+ charge points around the country, but that the ePace when it arrives will have 3yrs free charging at ALL charge points. From what I gathered, several manufacturers are doing the same thing, not necessarily free, but it will exponentially increase the number of charge points - except for the TESLA which seems to have gone alone with incompatible format.
     
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  3. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Prius sales have been dropping for years now, and the arrival of the gen4 did not help(the Prime likely is a big part of why). The hybrid sales are essentially capped in the US. Yes, the Ioniq isn't selling as well as others, but without it, the hybrid segment would likely shrink. It is the increase in choices that is keeping aloft.

    Sales does not apply as a qualifier for "too little, too late." We could say the same about the Malibu in the midsize sedan segment if it did.
    It broke the hundred mile range, and costs less than shorter range BEVs that came before. I think lowering the price of 100+ mile BEVs will do more of convincing the public than more 200+ mile ones with a higher price tag. A broad swath isn't going to care one way or another if they are out of their price range. Tesla aside, both segments will be seen as a second a car by the majority. Most are stuck in the ICE mindset, and need to see more plug ins on the road before they even consider looking at one.

    Really can't compare a bought car to one that isn't available.

    The first Superchargers were 70kW. Current ones are 120kW, and it has potential for more. CSS has the potential for 250kW, I believe, but most of the ones in the wild are like CHAdeMO; 50kW max.

    But you are still getting that poor battery heat management system.;)

    I started replying because of the too little, too late bit. Ioniq is not that. It is the first serious direct contender to the Prius. It is the first car designed to be a hybrid, PHEV, and BEV. Hyundai did a far better job packing the PHEV and BEV for a minimum amount of space loss than Toyota. The hybrid one can support the plug ins so that even if they don't do well, that is still more plug ins on the road for people to see. Hyundai does plan to make the plug ins widely available.

    It is an incompatible because there wasn't a format out met their needs while the Model S was developed. CHAdeMO is slower, and they were greedy with the license in the beginning. CCS is actually a recent standard.

    I think Tesla's format is the best. The portable EVSE that comes with the car works as a level 1 and 2. Cars come with adapters so it can plug into 15 amp(level 1) outlets or 50 amp(level 2) ones, and there are adapters available for a range of other outlets. There isn't separate ports for this AC charging and fast DC charging. Just the one port on the car.
     
  4. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    It’s one of the single best metrics. The Ioniq may have a better platform than some others, including the Prius, and we should recognize them for that. But they are not introducing a new technology. So it would be hard to claim that sales are lacking for the world not being ready yet.

    If the market (sales) disagree, it doesn’t matter what Hyundai or others think. It’s too little, too late. Between us, seems we’ll have to disagree on this point.

    Completely agree about the price issue and one of my points (although not true that it cost less than the 107 mile range Leaf that came before it which could be routinely had for insane discounts of $5k+ off MSRP).

    The Ioniq costs too much for what the market is currently willing to bear. Lower the price substantially below the competition, then we could have a most affordable xxx segment vehicle.

    “Little” is not simply some nominal/static figure of the value of the Ioniq or anything else. Lower the price for the same product and the value increases. That can take something from “too little” to just right or even a great value. In that case, if the price is right, being late might not be a deal breaker.

    Then much on these and other boards is in trouble. So much talk of a $35k Tesla on many vehicle enthusiast sites as here for 2-3 years, but where is the objection to the non-existent vehicle? We should be ok with discussing realistic hypotheticals.

    Technically and in reality - yes, but it’s still a moot point. Since I get a guarantee of minimum battery performance for 8 years on a vehicle that I am only leasing for 3, it’s overkill for me.

    It might make the engineer minded lose sleep, but is a non-issue for many.

    Agree and fully support their cause.


    FWIW, our disagreements on some issues belies how often I agree with you.
     
    #2304 iplug, Jul 12, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  5. Bluecar1

    Bluecar1 Active Member

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    a number of times in this thread it has been mentioned that people by an EV as a 2nd car, but what I have seen on the other forum is people mentioning that, then saying they are using the EV more as the primary car with the gasser only being used when absolutely necessary

    so like me I got the Hybrid, my next car will definitely be a plugin then likely move to an EV somewhere in the future

    most people will need to get comfortable with each step in the process rather than jump straight from a gasser to a full EV

    the hybrid gets you used to regen braking and the delights of EV mode silent driving for short distances

    the plugin adds getting used to charging and longer range EV driving and less use of the ICE but no range anxiety

    then you are ready for the full EV as you have mastered all the technologies and processes :)

    what we need now is a small town car yaris type size EV with a 60 - 80 mile range below about £15k / $20k for use as the 2nd car for mum to do all those short runs to the shops, school runs and short commutes, as it is the short runs which are the most polluting as the ICE warms up
     
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  6. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

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    Definitely - when my wife and I were together, we had 2 cars, a larger (Microbus?) and small hatch/wagon/sedan. Most mornings we'd double check who was going furthest - and if they didn't need 7 or 8 seats, would take the cheaper car to run. If we were in the same situation now, I'd have a PHEV or EV and operate the same way.
     
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  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    An excellent post, I would like to add some details:
    Hybrids - this was the first architecture that brought serious battery and motor technology to market. It is telling that the first plug-in modifications were by owners who fitted batteries and engine defeat devices to give them an EV capability. IMHO, these pioneers 'shamed' the manufactures to design and sell the earliest plug-in hybrids like @bisco PiP.

    Plug-in hybrids - experience has shown ~90% of all vehicle travel can be handled by an EV range 25-72 miles (40-115 km.) The remaining 10% is easily handled on gas power for both long distance and the occasional broken or occupied EVSE. But these plug-in cars only need one registration and annual tax and fees. Two specialized cars doubles the amount of vehicle overhead costs.

    BEV - this has to be weighted against individual requirements. Depending upon the distance and cost of public EVSE, people living in different areas may or may not be able to have just an EV. Fortunately these methods are well know and easily copied. For example, the @bwilson4web family.

    Requirements Analysis
    1. Elderly couple who are averaging one emergency room visit per year. When it is time to go, get in car and go!
    2. Living in Huntsville AL, elderly family members live in Stillwater OK and Coffeyville KS, ~700 miles (1120 km).
    3. Living in Huntsville AL, offspring family members live in the Washington DC area, 750 mi (1200 km) and New York City, 930 miles (1488 km).
    Huntsville to Washington DC and New York City is rich in SuperCharger and 3d party EVSE. A BEV could handle these trips without a problem.

    The Huntsville to Stillwater OK or Coffeyville KS trip has one long segment between SuperChargers, ~280 mi (448 km) between Little Rock AR and Tulsa OK. Only the long-range, Model 3, 310 mi (496 km) can span that leg but only if the SOC is above 90%. Due to the charge taper above 80%, we would have to spend hours in either Little Rock or Tulsa to get enough charge. Fort Smith AR is midway between Little Rock and Tulsa but does not have a SuperCharger or other high speed DC charger.

    Results:

    #1 - Due to the requirement to transport to an emergency room, two cars are needed so one is always available.
    #2 - Due to the distance to Oklahoma and Kansas, a hybrid or plug-in can work. Only the Model 3 has the range but one segment adds hours of charge time to reach over 90% SOC.
    #3 - Due to the well populated EVSE networks along the travel options, A hybrid, plug-in, or BEV can go the distance.

    So we have two, plug-in hybrids that fully meet all know transportation requirements. The new Model 3 can meet long distance travel but hindered by long charging times at each end of the Tulsa to Little Rock segment.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  8. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Going by sales, we can sale the original Insight, the first hybrid to North America, was too little, too late; same with the gen1 Prius. The entire hybrid segment is too little, too late. The ratio of new car sales have shrunk, and the only thing propping it up is the arrival of new models like the Ioniq. When the top sellers measure their annual sales in hundreds of thousands, all alternate fuel vehicles are tl,tl.

    If the concern of carbon emissions and global warming is way it is tl,tl, then PHEVs are too.

    Why is introducing new technology important? The gen4 Prius didn't introduce anything new. The Ioniq makes use of tricks it doesn't and vice versa. The Ioniq is effective with older tech. Newer tech could make it better, but that will raise the price, which can decrease sales.

    We can't ignore basic economics. The Ioniq Electric is only available on the West Coast, if not just California, because of supply issues. With the other incentives available, Hyundai likely isn't having trouble moving them without discounts. The same may also apply to the PHEV. Nissan doesn't have an issue with supply of the Leaf, there was likely even an oversupply.

    Then there other issues at play. Nissan has a thirstier fleet than Hyundai. The avoidance of CAFE fines can allow them to sell Leafs at below production costs. That's why insane deals could be found on Fusion hybrids. Then discounts aren't uncommon when a design is getting old, and reductions in battery costs also allow discounts. Their rep for having battery issues also plays a part.

    Hyundai has taken a beating with the market shift to crossovers and SUVs. Their financial footing will affect how they handle incentives. Then discounts on the introduction of a brand new model can give the public a negative impression of the model; a "what's wrong with it" aura.

    I do expect Hyundai to other such discounts once supply issues are addressed and the plug ins are more widely available.

    There are plenty of objections to the $35k Tesla if you check the other thread.

    Hypotheticals are fine. The Leaf will have an advantage due to Nissan's discounting. Your statement using personal experience came across as you choosing the Leaf over the Ioniq when the Ioniq wasn't a choice for you.
    It is an issue for those that can't afford new, or simply prefer used.
    It is an issue, because the Leaf is a large selling BEV, and any negatives and issues it has can be assumed by the population at large to apply to all BEVs and even PHEVs. Having to replace the battery within three years is like having to replace the transmission. Even without having to pay for it, the hassle and fact that it did happen will leave many rethinking getting a BEV again to replace it.

    If I had a BEV, it would be my primary car. I'd actually prefer skipping over a PHEV because of their compromises.

    I'm using the secondary term, because that is likely how many without BEV experience would view them, and that a BEV couldn't be a total replacement to an ICE car for many at this time.
     
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  9. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    No, that would not be the right interpretation. It would be too little (value), and plenty early.

    No, that would be a supply issue; not the predominant case with the Ioniq hybrid.

    It’s not required on its own, but as noted, when coming late to a party and not significantly undercutting the competition, you need to have some (perceived) significant new features to get the customers attention and purchase/lease.

    Already addressed this and said the Ioniq EV and PHEV were limited by supply. See post #2293. They are still “too little, too late” as discussed. “Too little” based on supply in the U.S. alone. If they can crank up supply and they become top 3-5 in their segment, we can remove the too little issue.

    Correct. I was referring specifically to you. ;)

    No, the numbers / costs I presented was in response to incorrect data claims about the Ioniq vs. the Leaf and others. The fast charging comments were a personal example showing that YMMV and the consumer should pick the right thing for him or herself, an attempt to disabuse what could be interpreted as a blanket one-size-fits-all charging statement. As California is the single greatest consumer of BEVs of all the States by a wide margin, I hoped to show that the exceptions are quite large. It was not a knock on the Supercharger network that taken for all of its metrics is clearly the champion.

    Also, by no means do I feel the Ioniq wasn’t the right choice for me. It’s a great car for me and if the PHEV was available when I was shopping for one I probably would have bought it over the competition including our Plug-in Prius and the Prime that is currently selling.

    Not really that either. Getting one coming off a 2 or 3 year lease means that you can get a used one for huge depreciation and have a battery guarantee for another 5-6 years. Want to buy a used Tesla? If you can't afford a new Leaf or Ioniq BEV or other, you can't afford one of those. A used Leaf, on the other hand, is within reach of many in the used car market.

    Don’t agree; it will probably not be a deal breaker for most. Like it or not, vehicles are becoming more like consumer devices like smart phones. It makes many cringe, but it’s reality none-the-less. People aren’t too angry that they replace their smartphones every couple of years. It’s also not the same because it is covered under warranty and you get a free car rental too. Minor inconvenience for the value of the vehicle. At some point there will probably be a large market for remanufactured Leaf and other BEV batteries. As you have pointed out, battery cell costs continue to decline, so accounting for cost opportunity, this may be quite cost efficient way of dealing with battery degradation.

    Highly recommend one. 6+ years ago when we got the Plug-in Prius, BEVs were the ones that had too many compromises for the price (too little, despite plenty early). It gets better and better for BEVs each year which is why we got the Leaf 2+ years ago and why the replacement for our Plug-in Prius will very likely be a BEV.
     
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  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Listen, the average fuel economy of new cars sold in the US is 27.something mpg. Referring to a car that will reliably return over 40mpg for a vast majority of drivers, and could get over 50mpg for some, as too little, too late is a disservice.

    There is just five gasoline powered cars available in the US rated 50mpg or higher in the combined rating, and for three of those five it is just an efficient trim. Then there two PHEVs with such a rating for hybrid mode. We should be encouraging additions to that group.

    The plug in segment will continue to grow with the help of incentives, and costs drop.
    Hybrid sales have always had a strong link to fuel prices. They are a tough sell when those prices are low. Another option increases the chance someone will purchase one instead of a traditional ICE. When gas prices go up, more options means people can get a fuel efficiency car without feeling like they have to settle for a Prius.
     
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  11. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    Wishing Hyundai the best in all endeavors to grow all segments that increase efficiencies and reduce greenhouse gases and other negative externalities. They make some fine vehicles and we would all do better to have more choose from their efficient lineup.
     
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  12. Bluecar1

    Bluecar1 Active Member

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    more hybrid, plugins and EV models from different manufacturers does two things

    more choice for the consumer, as no one car suits everyone

    and manufacturers have to raise their game to make their cars more attractive to the consumer, either by lowering cost or adding more features the consumer wants

    so to me the next 5 years will be interesting to watch how the different manufacturers handle the change away from pure gassers and move to hybrids/ EV technology

    Hyundai has embraced the alternative fuel area with everything from plain hybrids all the way through EV to fuel cell

    Toyota as far as I can see are staying in the safe area of hybrids and plugins, but I suspect they will now be playing catch up rapidly with an EV

    biggest challenge is limited battery production / supply, that will be the limiting factor as both Hyundai and VW (stopped taking orders for the golf GTE due to lack of sufficient battery supply) are finding

    the good thing is both of these have underestimated demand, which means there is still plenty of consumers wanting to move away from gassers :)
     
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  13. LasVegasaurusRex

    LasVegasaurusRex Active Member

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    it significantly increases structural integrity

    like all things in life there are costs and risks which are weighed against each other
     
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  14. lmans66

    lmans66 Junior Member

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    I read many who think he IONIC has a better platform etc.... Perhaps yes with the battery and loss of rear storage, the odd design of the Prime's rear seats when folded down but aside from that, I don't see it. The Overall feel of the Prime is solid. The other day my wife and I went into the Hyundai dealership to inspect it 'after hours'. One Ionic was unlocked which gave us a change to peak around. She was debating getting one until we 'got in one' and saw the fit and overall quality.

    Impressions: Cheap...... The 'overall fit' was cheap. For example when you fold down the rear seats, the carpet doesn't go back perfectly so it is either bunched up, or you have to tuck it in. The front seat was a manual move and the ratchet mechanism they used was terrible sounding and just sounded cheap and about ready to break.

    The material used on the dash and door trim was cheap. The arm rest lacked storage space and didn't fit one's elbow as it rested in a drivers position. The rear window was more difficult to see out of than the Prime's.

    Battery charging...what is it on the Ionic? 9 hours? ...compared to 5 /1/5 on Prime...

    If a car comes out and it feels cheap and is visibly cheap, what is it like 'inside' where it counts? Not sure. I will take the Prime any day even though the rear storage has been compromised.
     
  15. Bluecar1

    Bluecar1 Active Member

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    it all depends on which model you sat in and looked at

    9 hours battery charge time sound like the full EV which is a 28KWh battery,

    the feel of the interior is subjective, personally I don't find It cheap, but not in the realm of BMW / Mercedes

    the higher trim levels do have powered seats, rather than manual adjustment

    rear carpets when you fold the seats down yep, spot on I often have to tuck mine back in often if I fold the seats down

    rear vision, yep it is limited, not tried a prime so I can't comment on how they compare

    on the other forum we have had no issues with trim fit or squeaks / creaks for dashboard or trim, in fact a few have commented on "how well it is screwed together" mine at just coming up 40,000 miles in about 20 months has no issues with trim fit/squeaks , comfort is good for me on long runs, excellent economy and no mechanical issues
     
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  16. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

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    I was surprised by the " 'overall fit' was cheap" comment. I've owned one Korean car (2006 KIA), and it had the best fit'n'finish of any I've owned, certainly better than PRIUS, where the panel fit never was good, but the dealer's service said it was fine.
     
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  17. RCO

    RCO Senior Member

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    Thank you for your valuable opinion, but as with all opinions it is subjective. Perhaps if you pass that way again you could ascertain which model of Ioniq you were looking over and the exact trim level for us. This would give a better perspective to your review IMHO.
     
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  18. lmans66

    lmans66 Junior Member

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    It was the Blue Iconic..... that was the emblem on the car....pure Hybrid...That is all they have in this state for now, no plug in/ EV ...
     
  19. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

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    I'll wait till he's actually done a back-to-back DRIVE comparison - no journalist has come back with that opinion.

    In fact quite the opposite - ie "leather upholstery is far more substantial than the stuff used in Prius" ... " includes digital radio and Apple CarPlay/Android, all items absent in the Toyota" ... "Ioniq’s warranty ... five-year, unlimited mileage ... Prius ... three-year warranty ... 100,000km [the worst in the business] ... and so on.
     
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  20. lmans66

    lmans66 Junior Member

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    True...but....

    I have cloth seats and prefer the cloth seats ....don't want leather or fake leather.
    Digital radio...Apple App....I couldn't care less as I just listen to sports radio or a country music station.
    5 year warranty....Not a deal when I have a 3 year lease.

    So from my book as I have the Prime and was comparing the two side-by-side, just the quality of things (not driving nor warranty, nor radio etc), the Prime beat the Iconic. Better fit all around, manual seating on both but the Prius didn't sound like it was going to break when I moved the seat up or down, the back seat folded easily on the Prime while on the Ionic, the fabric brushed against the seat belt and sides of the car, the front console between the seats had little storage on the Iconic, where I placed my elbows on the console or on the side of the vehicle didn't fit and felt cheap on Iconic, rear folding seat carpet never fit in place in the Iconic, no storage on back of drivers seat.

    Iconic wins on the Tonneau cover .....Iconic wins on being a 5 seater, Iconic wins having a totally flat surface when read seats folded down, Iconic wins on storage under rear of car (spare tire?).

    Equal on cup holders, equal on quality of fabric on seats, equal on radio controls as we both prefer controls and buttons over the 11.5 screen and my Prime comes with the smaller screen, thus has buttons etc, equal on storage compartments within the car.

    So, lots to look at when looking at visual of car and inside.... I just prefer the quality and overall fit of Prime.
     
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