I pissed off an SUV driver today, unintentionally...

Actually there are promising technologies that allow hydrogen to be sent through electrolysis and then into a battery like shell in a solid form. This allows it to be non-flammable (non flammable as a solid). I can speak for science as I do study it, I may not know everything, but no one does (yet).

 

"Promising" technologies are long on promise and short on delivery.

When I was doing my research into hydrogen storage there was already technology for solid storage, but it was astronomically expensive.

A "promising" lower-cost solid technology store using carbonized chicken feathers had been under study for a few years, but no usable results had been published.

I don't exactly study "science" but I am two classes away from having two engineering degrees under my belt, and since I'm more than a little of a green freak I have really studied how this stuff is really done.

If you are interested in learning more of the actual realism in recycling, environmental science, etc. then I could upload a few good readings for you.

As wonderful as promising discoveries may sound, we are ultimately limited by the "laws" of energy, thermodynamics, dynamics, statics, heat transfer.

We may dream, but until we learn the math behind it, most of what we imagine to be possible is a fantasy.

 

No, I do understand your points. There is a limit to dreaming and the laws of physics and our current technologies, cost effectiveness, etc. I am a realistic environmentalist as much as I can be for my age, which is a lot more than most. I compost my garbage, I plant trees, I consume less, reuse more. Try to just not have a lot of plastics or packaging, I drive less, I eat less, I use LEDs and some CFLs when I'm desperate. There are many things labelled "Green" or "Eco" friendly and many are in fact, not. I only buy products that I can verify the ingredients, and I do test them with a microscope and a centrifuge I have (expensive as hell). And I have done a lot of research into the scientific studies of climate change, ecological engineering, and Green Energy. Many Green energies are still at their basal levels, but that is only because market unfairness has kept many investors away. Subsidizing fossil fuels and archaic means of energy and then not doing so with Alternative energies will of course cause an unfair market distribution. My concentrations are Business Law and Environmental Science. I do realise there is a limit to what each can do when they do not cooperate in a synergistic level. I do agree though, that some of the technologies of COURSE promise too much, but I have a hydrogen fuel cell in my apartment that converts my distilled water into "battery" packs of solid hydrogen that is then used in an electric converter pack to give electricity. It is very small scale (about the size of a desktop) but still, it works and it works well, with many times a maximum Wattage output of 20-30 watts from the hydrogen fuel. It is interesting, and it will be a very long time before it is perfected, but that is what science and people like you (engineers) are for. Glad you have some valid insight though. Always good to discuss the realities of things, rather than just the dreams and hopes.

 

Do you mean that you have an electrolyzer (a damn expensive piece of equipment if commercial-grade) in your apartment to crack the water, and a fuel cell to use the hydrogen to generate electricity?

I'd be interested in what applications you have for the centrifuge. I don't have one, but there are a LOT of things (including very mundane, not very scientific uses) that I could do with a centrifuge!

Mine would need to be stainless steel or other non-corrosive, heat-tolerant material though. I love multi-use devices--property taxes are assessed on square footage so devices that can serve multiple needs are the way to go.

The current research in this house is underground irrigation systems for a hoophouse, radiant energy barriers on specific walls to reduce winter heating loads and summer cooling loads (some of these will absolutely NEED to be mobile), designing windbreaks with one really unfriendly redneck neighbor on the other side of a critical prevailing winter wind direction, the rainwater collection aqueduct, the low-water use chicken waterers, the photovoltaic system (possibly combined with wind if I could convince city council to allow me to go over 30 feet high with my turbine)--my cup runneth over.

It is never dull around here.

 

This is one of the packs I have: Horizon MINIPAK Fuel Cell Charger - Free Shipping at REI.com

And this is my "battery" electrolysis machine. This fills my cartridge with solid hydrogen. http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/store/hydrofill.htm

The stick is the "hydrostick" and the machine is the "hydrofill" If you put in regular water it doesn't operate, could damage the machine, so I have been cautious.

Or on Amazon: http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/store/hydrofill.htm, Amazon.com: Horizon Hydrofill Desktop Hydrogen Refueling Station: Toys & Games

I would like to try this: SiGNa's portable hydrogen power solution due out soon

and this: SiGNa's portable hydrogen power solution due out soon - Images

When I wrote "it is very small scale" I read the label wrong, but nonetheless it produces enough to run small things for now. I do not have a Turbine because I have an apartment in this city and they have stupid NIMBY laws.

I love the concept of solar panels and electric battery applications, but the use of batteries isn't very environmental in the first place. I personally see more energy solutions using Potential-> Kinetic electrical means (PaveGen tiles for example), Hydrogen fuel cells (with solid storage methods), Compressed air (with safety mechanisms to contain potential punctures), Wind turbines, And the use of gravity for alternative energy. I am steering away from battery applications unless the batteries are the newer ones that have less heavy and rare metals.

Here is the gravity light, one of the most ideal solutions for electricity as it uses very little resources.
GravityLight: lighting for developing countries. | Indiegogo

Btw, I love how this discussion was originally about an SUV driver.

 

In the early 80's, we had a Honda Civic with a CVCC stratified charge engine. This thing routinely got mileage in the mid 40's on the highway, with 49 MPG being the bet we ever got (never hit 50!) The Prius is the first car we have had since then that did at least that well. Honda never again offered a non-hybrid car that got mileage that good and I never heard why they abandoned that technology. My theory is that the stratified charge engine simply did not have enough power.

 

Well, I think it is best you just get ahead of them, move into their lane and then clean your windshileds for about 1/2 mile of so. That tends to have them focus on other problems on the hghway.

 

I keep hearing people mention that there are cars that used to get in the high 40s, and I hear Europeans currently tell me they have Diesel and some Petrol cars that get high 40s or high 30s for a cheap/decent price. Why are these not available in the USA? I understand Big Oil is powerful, but could they be the real reason for the decrease in efficiency? I'm slightly annoyed that most of our cars today only get 25-35 mpg on average and yet people who had cars from years ago had such great mileage! I am so surprised that fuel economy hasn't improved more because cars have gotten lighter, technology "better" and everything else seems to be advancing so fast! i.e. cell phones, computers, etc. The car industry is more disappointing when I hear about cars that got great mileage from years ago.

 

Don't just blame the car industry--the U.S. consumer deserves just as much blame.

Engineers made engines more and more efficient, and guess what happened?

We just put those engines in more massive vehicles--because the U.S. consumer wanted big trucks, or sporty cars with excessive horsepower.

Since mass, frontal area and drag coefficient all figure in significantly to aerodynamic, rolling, and grade resistances, we made no headway.

Even now I hear people scoff about the Prius being 'small.' Unless a person is abnormally large--as in tall, or "tall side-to-side," there is nothing small about a Prius.

We did the same thing with houses.

We got more efficient with insulation about building materials. So what did Americans do? Built bigger and bigger houses, which of course consume more energy to heat, cool, and light because of their size and the surface area they expose to unconditioned space.

IT IS ASININE.

Now I'm mad. Going to go play with my garden seedlings and chicken coop plans to get my mind off this crap.

 

There is merit to this argument. I replaced our early 1980 Honda Civic with a 1985 model. It was larger, with many more amenities ( including A/C!)....and barely made 2/3 the mileage of the old car. The older model CVCC engine was likely not powerful enough to propel the newer model well enough. As an aside, the old model had mechanical valve lifters I had to adjust every 12000 miles or so.

 

Hydrogen is not a source of energy, since it's not available in its pure form. You need to put in energy to get it out. So it's only a method of storing energy. Think of hydrogen as just a battery, compare it to other available battery technologies, and you'll be able to think of and compare it to other things more fairly.
The European/Canadian version of the Smart car from years ago could easily get 50 to 70mpg on diesel engines, as can many other diesel cars. The reason we don't have those here (and our Smart cars get crap mpg and require most expensive fuel) is because those super-efficient diesel engines can't pass our EPA standards. If you want to blame someone for crappy cars with crappy fuel efficiency, don't blame oil companies or fat people, blame government (yeah, I know, weird, right?).

And finally, can you guys stop with the environmental/scientific arguments, and go back to stories about surprising and pissing off rednecks in big cars? Those stories are WAY more fun!

 

Aw, I was actually rather having fun with the scientific arguments.

But you are right. This thread is about pissing off rednecks in big trucks.

Regarding the issues with hydrogen as a "source" of energy, read post #100 in which I tried to summarize some research I did for a group project that analyzed the potential of substituting hydrogen energy storage instead of battery banks for residential solar systems.

Long story short--NO! It is not feasible. Unless you have some huge underground structure for storing the very low-energy-density hydrogen at standard atmospheric pressure and extreme amounts of excess solar generation during the summer that will make sense to store hydrogen as an annual energy set-aside.

The reality really disappointed one of our grad student partners.

But anyhow, I won't be able to contribute stories of poking sticks in the eyes of gas-guzzling drivers until after spring break is over next week.