ICE in EV Mode

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Prius Plug-in 2012-2015' started by PiPLosAngeles, Nov 28, 2012.

  1. devprius

    devprius /dev/geek

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    I'm all for emissions and safety equipment. I would never considered modifying a car by getting rid of the emissions equipment or disabling the safety equipment in the hopes I would be able to go faster.

    What I think the problem is that I think that we a have a different notion of what rapid acceleration means. For some of us it means being able to get onto local streets and highways in a safe manner to avoid being creamed by traffic. For others it might be being able to go up a hill at a reasonable speed. Or it might be because someone needs to pass someone rapidly so they can get out of the way of the moron who has been sitting on our tail flashing their headlights so they can get to the next stop light 15 seconds ahead of us.

    The car is designed to blend the use of two different fuel sources to get us where we need to go in the most efficient manner. The current design of the electric side of things says that we can't use more than 38 kW of power to move us forward. Any more than that and the ICE has to come on. Why the limit? Probably the size of the traction motor and the ability of the battery to supply that much current without melting itself.
     
  2. lensovet

    lensovet Not your typical youngin :)/BP Brigade 207

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    I mean it depends on what you want. Yes, the acceleration is different. Also, you can potentially get the acceleration you so desire in pure EV mode…and destroy the battery.
    Really, especially in cars, if the engineers did something, it's because they might actually understand the car better than you do. There's no conspiracy to somehow intentionally prevent you from using your car.
     
  3. priuskitty

    priuskitty PIP FAN

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    maybe more horsepower would help?:whistle:

    How What You Drive Impacts What You Pay for Auto Insurance, Most and Least Expensive Cars to Insure - Kelley Blue Book

    higher horsepower= higher insurance premiums
     
  4. Big Dude

    Big Dude Member

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    I was in the inside lane at a stoplight and I needed to make a right turn in the next block and I thought "bummer, there is this kid in the right lane that looks like he will not let me in" . Then I remembered the Power switch in the PIP. I hit the switch when the light turned green and I actually got some scratch. The torque of the electric motor and ICE combined is pretty robust. I shot in front of everyone and was able to safely move into the right lane and make my quick right turn. So don't forget the Power switch is there to enable quick Eco to give punch when needed.

    Secondly we need to remember that most PIP owners do not obsess over ICE/EV like do as new owners. The PIP is the most efficient production car in the world for my kind of driving and I'm going to complain about how the engineers accomplish this amazing feat?--and they make it trouble free and transparent? You can get amazing mileage without thinking. I'm an 40 year "Ford man" who is frequently blown away with the quality, design and execution of this product. As I read this thread I think to myself "If Toyota did what they want for this tiny group, it would be walking away from the majority of their market who just want to save money without thinking much about it. I know the gaming aspect can be fun--but really, we are tiny market of aficionados within a much larger market of contented owners .
     
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  5. lensovet

    lensovet Not your typical youngin :)/BP Brigade 207

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    do keep in mind – with the accelerator to the floor, the modes all perform the same – ECO, Normal, and Power.
     
  6. mmmodem

    mmmodem Senior Taste Tester

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    What you have just discovered is mob rules. Based on this albeit small sampling size, Toyota made the right decision in programming the EV button. Statistically, there will be people with opinions on the far extremes of full time EV for fuel economy, you. And then there are the Autoweek editors who want more power. Autoweek's attempt to take down the Prius | PriusChat
    You say you are disappointed at the tone of the board but are you sure, you're not disappointed because the board doesn't agree with you?

    I think we can agree that there is no right answer. Toyota caters to the mob, that's how you sell more vehicles. It's unfortunate that you have less control but we think Toyota has it programmed to suit our needs. Hence, you may have purchased the wrong vehicle.

    Put it another way, I think Toyota is reprehensible for not including a spare tire in the PiP. Dreaded flat tire and I dont like it a bit :( | PriusChat What am I going to do? I'm going to continue to convince people that this is a necessary safety equipment. Among my sphere of influence, this is a losing argument, few know how to or care to change a flat. Meanwhile, I'm going to go find a spare tire.
     
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  7. PiPLosAngeles

    PiPLosAngeles Senior Member

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    I don't care whether people agree with me. Electric Vehicle Mode means just what it says, it's not a matter of opinion. It's either behaving like an electric vehicle in Electric Vehicle Mode or it's not. The Prius does not behave like an electric vehicle despite the user explicitly requesting that it do so. That's a design flaw, whether it's in the implementation of the EV mode or the naming of the mode is a matter for reasonable disagreement, but there isn't room to rationally argue that it's behaving like an electric vehicle while in Electric Vehicle Mode if it still engages the ICE.

    The tone I am disappointed in is people suggesting I have bought the wrong car because I want the car to do what it says it will do, or accusing me of driving recklessly when I describe why accelerating out of an imminent accident is not likely, especially in a Prius. On the reckless thing, I'm not sure how it's even connected.
     
  8. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    I don't mean to be rude but if you RTFM, you would have known the criteria where pure EV will not be possible. We know you assumed how it operated per post #19. Please read the Owner's Manual Section 1 titled "Before Driving", specifically page 40.

    Now that you know, you can stay within the criteria and maximize EV operation.

    Others plugins (Energi or Volt) with more EV bias/power also have criteria/restrictions but less. However, they use more electricity per mile and lower MPG on gas. PiP was optimized for both fuels.
     
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  9. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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  10. PiPLosAngeles

    PiPLosAngeles Senior Member

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    I am so lost at why this point seems confusing. I'm aware of what the manual says. It says that in Electric Vehicle Mode the Prius will behave like an electric vehicle except for those times when it won't. Documenting a behavior does not make it a proper behavior. All that the manual tells us is that Toyota intentionally designed EV mode in such a way that the car would not actually behave like an electric vehicle.

    You can't stay within the criteria because they're too broad. How much hill, exactly, triggers the ICE in EV mode? How much accelerator pedal pressure? At what exact temperature does the ICE start running? They just give vague generalities, but not enough information to operate right at the edge of performance.
     
  11. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i think you're making it a little too complicated. i have had my pip for 7 months and the ice haasn't come on once without my knowing that i was doing something to cause it, and was under my control. the only think i haven't experienced yet is temps below 30.
     
  12. retired4999

    retired4999 Prius driver since 2005

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    Yep! nothing new until 14 degrees! :) 16 degrees this morning, Close!
     
  13. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Just watch the HSI bar. When the bar goes beyond the max, the ICE will trigger. I have measured the max battery power before ICE triggering with the Torque app. It is at 41 kW (about 55 hp).

    I find 55 hp more than enough for city driving. It also has surprising power even on the highway 60 mph or below. It is actually easy to exceed 62 mph in EV mode so ICE will kick in and you'll be in EV-BOOST mode (using both ICE and discharging battery).

    The HSI bar in EV mode is not equivalent to HSI bar in HV mode. For example in EV mode, HSI bar may be showing half but if I switch to HV mode (maintaining my foot pedal position), the bar will extend into PWR region.

    55 hp from the battery is a lot considering ICE would need to rev around 3,000 rpm to make that power in HV mode. At that rpm, you'll start to hear the ICE roar. To put it into perspective, Chevy Volt gas engine max out at 74 hp.
     
  14. PiPLosAngeles

    PiPLosAngeles Senior Member

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    That's my normal driving display. I watch that thing enough that it might be a little dangerous :whistle:

    That's why I follow slow trucks. I look like a victim instead of a willing slowpoke :).

    Interesting. I know that it's completely impossible to get started from a stop facing uphill without triggering PWR mode in HV mode. I hate that.
     
  15. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Yea, If you need to accelerate uphill so the gas engine needs to rev 3,000 rpm, do it in HV mode. Using battery to accelerate in that condition would cut down a lot of EV range.

    Choose your fuel wisely. :)

    I am averaging 54 MPG on gas and 258 Wh/mi (12 EV miles per charge).
     
  16. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Less dangerous than staring down on the speedometer in a regular car. HSI bar is located below the windshield. Your eyes need to focus less (far to near and then reverse) than if you were to stare under the steering wheel and then onto the road.
     
  17. PiPLosAngeles

    PiPLosAngeles Senior Member

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    It depends on which motor is more efficient. I don't know if burning gas uphill and electricity on the level or downhill is the most efficient use of energy, and I don't know that it isn't. Perhaps overall fuel usage is less using the batteries for uphill climbs and fuel for flat and downhill? Has anyone put this to any rigorous testing?
     
  18. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Well, I was talking more about the energy content rather than efficiency.

    A fully charged PiP battery has 2.7 kWh usable energy. A gallon of gas has 33.7 kWh equivalent energy. Prius Atkinson ICE is about 40% efficient so usable is about 13.5 kWh. To put it into perspective, a full battery has 1/5 energy of a gallon of gas.

    When you are doing heavy acceleration, use the fuel with superior energy density and refueling speed.
     
  19. PiPLosAngeles

    PiPLosAngeles Senior Member

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    How efficient is the electric drivetrain? It would be hard to calculate which yielded the best overall MPG without knowing a lot of engineering details about the car that we're not privy to. I may run some tests as my goal is the best overall MPG I can get, even if that means burning up my EV on 2 miles worth of steep hills.

    I'm going to start a thread about testing this so it's not buried in some other thread out of view of other people who might be able to contribute information.
     
  20. devprius

    devprius /dev/geek

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    I think the problem here is one of expectations and definitions. You see the words EV mode and expect the car to behave exactly like an EV, no exceptions. We see the words EV mode and expect the car to mostly act like an EV, but know that the car can't always run in that mode, and will need the ICE in certain conditions. EV mode, to me, adequately describes the mode that the car operates in 90% of time when I'm in EV mode. Just because you have a different definition of EV mode doesn't mean that Toyota's is wrong. Remember, words can have multiple meanings. The key to understanding the different meanings is to understand the context they are in.

    The reason that people are suggesting that you bought the wrong car is because of you focusing on the fact the EV mode doesn't satisfy all of your expectations of what EV mode in a hybrid should be. The Volt seems to favor your definition and expectations a lot better than the PiP does.

    They give vague generalities because it's impossible to document all the specific real-world conditions under which the ICE will come on. Accelerator pedal posistion changes depending upon what speed you are at & whether you are accelerating. Once I'm up to speed, very light pressure is needed. But if I'm starting from a dead stop, I'll need more, possibly to the point of needing the ICE to come on. Did you really expect them to include a chart of typical road grades & speeds under which the ICE will come on? Did you want a chart of ambient outside temps and cabin temp settings and fan speeds that will keep the ICE off?

    Get a ScanGauge II, program it with the PiP xGauges, mount it by the dash, and start experimenting, and see under what conditions the ICE is forced to come on. Or just pay attention to the HSI screen and try to stay out of the PWR range. Either way will help you learn where the EV performance edge is...
     
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