ICE in EV Mode

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Prius Plug-in 2012-2015' started by PiPLosAngeles, Nov 28, 2012.

  1. priuskitty

    priuskitty PIP FAN

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    +1 I couldn't agree more.
     
  2. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Good idea. Do give me the link.
     
  3. PiPLosAngeles

    PiPLosAngeles Senior Member

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    It doesn't need the ICE, it's designed to use the ICE to augment the performance of the electric motor. There's a critical difference. The way you explain it makes it sound like it's not possible for the car to drive in pure EV mode, and that's just not true.

    It's not that the EV mode doesn't satisfy some personal taste I have, EV mode in the Prius isn't actually EV mode. That's all. There's no need to complicate it beyond that. I just wish Toyota had designed the car so that EV mode was actually EV mode.



    Impossible is an awfully strong word. The car has a set of parameters which it uses to determine whether or not to engage the ICE. They should let anyone interested know what those parameters are. There's no need to construct a table. In fact, a table would still be less informative than the actual logic used by the computer to make that decision.
     
  4. CharlesH

    CharlesH CA HOV Decal #5 on former PiP

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    It may be arguing semantics, but the PiP was designed to be a very efficient hybrid (balancing the use of the ICE and the electric motor) plus some additional plug-in capability, not an EV with a supplemental ICE (as is the Volt). The standard Prius also has an EV button, but its functionality is much more limited than the EV button on the PiP. Similarly, the ECO button only tweaks certain operating parameters; it does not guarantee ECOnomical operation. The EV button wasn't intended to be a disable-the-ICE button; it is only meant to bias operation in the direction of using the electric motor.

    I am not saying that these design decisions are always clear. It took me a long time to figure out that the START TIME and END TIME settings on the charge timer were two independent timers of which you pick one to be active, rather than together specifying a time range over which you wish your car to charge.
     
  5. PiPLosAngeles

    PiPLosAngeles Senior Member

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    I guess I've become spoiled in the world of high tech devices because I'm used to being able to hack them and make custom firmware for routers, phones, computers, etc. I really enjoy that sort of thing and wish for it in the Prius. How cool would it be to have custom PiP roms available with source code?
     
  6. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    I just upgraded the Entune from 1.8.4 to 2.1.0 yesterday. The color of the maps in the navigation is night and day, literally. The old colors are dark and ugly. The new color theme is more like Garmin.

    Back to the topic, you can mod the PiP. The best place to start is between the steering wheel and the driver seat. :ROFLMAO:
     
  7. lensovet

    lensovet Not your typical youngin :)/BP Brigade 207

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    But the Prius isn't designed to be a computer. It's designed to be an iPhone or a toaster. Do you write custom firmware for your microwave? I doubt it. This is purely and squarely an issue of expectations, and people need to realize that as progress marches on, fewer and fewer things will be for tinkerers and more and more things will become simple appliances for people to USE.
     
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  8. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

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    I think you have finally nailed it when you say: "I just wish Toyota had..."

    I think we've covered the basics of what the car "actually" does, so maybe your comments would be better phrased as a wishlist for the next generation Prius. Given the balance between battery capapcity, battery weight, battery cost, motor size/weight/power, ICE, gas tank size and overall car cost and cost to operate I think Toyota did a fairly good job. Yes, if the base price was $5000 more then the car could push the limits on EV mode even more...and appeal to fewer people due to the higher cost.

    Mike
     
  9. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    CVT was the same way when Prius was first introduced. Different components produced different results, be the intent was clear. How is EV different?

    There's an engine in the system. Expecting it to never be used is a bit odd. You do indeed get electric-only drive opportunities, but that isn't an absolute. The intent is to deliver higher MPG. That should be quite clear.
     
  10. mmmodem

    mmmodem Senior Taste Tester

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    Did you know when you drive in HV mode, sometimes it isn't in HV mode? If you stay below the middle bar, it's EV mode. Or golf cart mode. or whatever word you want to call it. You don't define EV mode. Toyota does. I mean, you are arguing semantics here. EV mode contains other "mini" modes. There's the coined "EV Boost" mode. Where you go above 62 mph where both engines fire to get you 100 mpg. There's the Power EV mode where you get full power from the electric motor.

    What's the point? Well, if you're going to argue semantics, Toyota doesn't call the PiP an EV. Toyota calls the PiP a PHEV. So you're asking Toyota for a EV only experience in a non-EV vehicle. And the PiP allows you to do that but only if you stay within parameters. Otherwise, it's a PHEV. which is what Toyota designed.
     
  11. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

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    I personally like the fact that car drive trains are very difficult to hack. It is dangerous enough with people everywhere tapping on their phones. Having them looking down, tapping on their phones and having it affect the car's operation would be a net negative IMO. A car enthusiast, building their own EV or adding batteries and software to a Prius -- sure. But once you can just click and download new "upgrades" for your car from any dubious web site with a "Download" button you know that a car virus is the next step for some anarchist group that would be delighted to have every Prius (or Ford or Nissan, etc) suddenly stop at 8:30am some Monday morning.

    Software from Adobe (Flash, Reader) or Oracle (Sun's Java), Windows, etc that are constantly wanting to get updates just when you want to get some work done are not what we want cars to become. You get in your car and press Start...the screen comes up with a "would you like to install critical updates from Toyota?"

    Mike
    (edit fixed typos)
     
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  12. devprius

    devprius /dev/geek

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    I never said that car couldn't operate in pure EV mode. It does that all the time. But when I exceed the power available from the electric motor & battery, the ICE has to operate, or I'm not going anywhere, or not as rapidly as I need to. In EV mode, the system favors the battery & electric motor based on power demand and uses the ICE to augment power demands.. In HV mode, it favors the ICE and uses the battery/electric motor to operate the ICE in the most fuel efficient manner. At the end of the day, this is a hybrid vehicle and it's all about getting the best gas mileage possible and balancing the two available fuel sources to achieve that.

    It's EV mode as far as Toyota is concerned. And I'm fine with the way they defined it and I can use it. Just because you can't mash the accelerator pedal and stay in EV mode doesn't make it a fake EV mode. It's just EV mode up to a certain power demand point. That's the way the system was designed and documented. I'd rather have this version of EV mode that lets me use the ICE when I punch the accelerator, than to find myself having to hit a button on the dash, or a use a shift lever, to get enough power to get on the freeway with getting creamed by other cars. If I want to play around with shifting gears, I'll drive my wife's Mini Countryman.

    Some of what you are asking for falls into the proprietary trade secret area. Toyota doesn't want to give out too much information because it can potentially give their competitors information on how to beat them. With the use of a ScanGauge, the HSI screen, and some experimentation, it is possible to infer most of the parameters that go into deciding whether to fire up the ICE.
     
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  13. devprius

    devprius /dev/geek

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    I love being able to do this kinda stuff too. I've turned a linux box into an internet router before there were home routers, loaded DD-WRT on a wireless router/gateway, hacked my phone to customize it (or get around carrier restrictions), dived into the OS guts of my Mac Mini to enable additional features, gotten into factory setup mode on my TV, etc. But when it comes to my car, something that needs to get me to work and home safely, I'm not sure I want to start diving into custom ROMS for the car. At the end of the day, the car needs to be as bullet proof as possible.
     
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  14. PiPLosAngeles

    PiPLosAngeles Senior Member

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    You never know. It could be like the difference between the factory Linksys ROMs and getting something like OpenWRT. The latter will run for years without a reboot where the former struggles to last a day. From the manufacturer doesn't always mean better or more reliable.
     
  15. PiPLosAngeles

    PiPLosAngeles Senior Member

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    I don't think it's odd to want to ability to exercise control over the machines I own and operate. I can deliver higher MPG by using EV only and avoiding ICE even if I stomp the pedal to the floor.
     
  16. PiPLosAngeles

    PiPLosAngeles Senior Member

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    Only because people accept it and put up with it. I'm not happy to be a passive consumer of technology, only getting what I'm spoon fed by some marketing droid.
     
  17. lensovet

    lensovet Not your typical youngin :)/BP Brigade 207

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    lol
     
  18. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    why you didn't buy a leaf?
     
  19. PiPLosAngeles

    PiPLosAngeles Senior Member

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    I suppose the concept is either beyond explanation for some, or people just refuse to understand. Maybe if you're not accustomed to engineering things and tweaking them to get every last bit of efficiency, it wouldn't bother you or even occur to you to be bothered by a suboptimal system. Where you see 90 MPG as a vast improvement, I see it as a failure to get the 105 MPG I could achieve.

    It doesn't matter whether the car gets 10 million miles on one charge. If I know it can operate more efficiently than it is set to do, it will bother me if the manufacturer prevents me from doing so. Is the Leaf fully-configurable? Can I change its operating parameters to improve efficiency according to my habits and needs? If not, I won't be any happier with it than a Prius.
     
  20. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    it doesn't have an ice. pure ev all the time. isn't that what you want?
     
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