I'm Prius-damaged

Personally, I congratulate you on your decision NOT to get another car right now. You can get to work without a car, and you can use your wife's car when necessary, so it's an unneccesary expense. You've said there are perhaps two times a year that it would be very convenient to have a car bigger than the Prius, and you can rent one then.

Perhaps at some point in the future, you'll feel the need to have another car for your own daily use. But in the meantime, go ahead and save your money, and the technology will improve.

I, too, am 'Prius damaged'. I'm single, so there's not another car easily available to me in or near my household, and there's no 'public transportation' in the suburban/rural area where I live, so I NEED a car. Fortunately, I've had my Prius for the past 6 months. If something disastrous happened and I needed to replace it in the near future, I'd definitely get another Prius. 5 or 10 years down the road, I'll decide on a replacement based on what's on the market then.

 

A big part of the reason Prius gets such good mileage is because it was designed from the ground up for extreme fuel efficiency and that includes lots of features outside the hybrid system itself.

One of the most significant is the drag coefficient which, at .26 is second only to the 2-seat Honda insight at
.25. A Porsche Cayman, by comparison is only .29, which is still VERY good. As far as I can tell, the Ford Escape Hybrid is somewhere between .4 and .45. That's much worse than the Prius and a big part of the reason (along with weight) that gas mileage is so much lower....the Escape is pushing around a lot of air as it moves. The Escape also does not have low rolling resistance tires (which costs another 5mpg or so). The Escape has some traditional accessories, like belt driven AC compressor vs. electric on Prius...and that means gas engine runs more. It also doesn't have a hot coolant storage, AFAIK, which helps get the gas engine up to normal temps and therefore can shut it down sooner vs. the Ford which needs to run the gas engine longer on first startup.

If you took the Prius, removed all the hybrid parts and just dropped in a 2.0 liter gas engine for equivalent performance, you'd probably still be getting 40 miles per gallon, and maybe 50 on the highway. Or if you could hide the shape of the Escape in a bubble shaped fairing, replace the stock tires with low-rolling resistance tires, I would bet you could easily coax another 10 mpg and maybe 15 on the highway without changing the weight at all.

Of course, it would look like a giant rolling science experiment, but hey, that's kinda cool too!

B)

 

Ford DO make small fuel efficient cars, non-hybrid, but they just don't sell them in the USA. The Fiesta and the Ka arent' sold over there, which is a great shame.

Toyota do however sell the Yaris, which in its diesel form is slightly MORE economical than a Prius on paper, and is probably significantly more in practice. CO2 emissions slightly worse though. Check it out.

 

I think I'm Prius-damaged too, but I didn't know what to call it until now. Thank you for sharing; I don't feel alone any longer...
[smile]

Seriously, I, too think the car is a great overall package.

I've been ruminating about adding power to the engine...but, after a long drive this weekend in a variety of conditions (and mileage ranging from a low of 38.2 over nearly 100 miles, to an overall of 46.8 after about 350), well, let's just say that I've again drunk deeply of the Kool-Aid, and am more of a believer than ever.

Still waiting for the Eddie Bauer Edition of the Prickup, though...
[laughing]

[attachmentid=5536]

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(VinceDee @ Oct 29 2006, 09:45 AM) [snapback]340250[/snapback]</div>

Because they're heavy as as a lead brick!

"Tiny bit better?" Not the Insight *I* drove! I borrowed one from my buddy who was going on vacation. I kept it three-and-a-half weeks and drove it 956 miles on 10.4 gallons of gas. And that was with NO engine-off coasting... which would've increased the mileage considerably.

You'd really have to work to get a manual-tranny Insight DOWN into the 50-mpg range. I'd get high sixties just boppin' across town. And yes, the fill-up mileage computation matched the computer's holdings. I averaged 113 mpg on a 120-mile round trip to a city north of me. I drove it down a flat part of my state and recorded 123.2 mpg over a 25-mile stretch.

The car had lived its first 55,000 miles in Tallahassee, Florida. All short trips and with the A/C on full blast. The lifetime mileage was 56+ mpg, driven by a buddy and his wife who had NO interest (apart from buying a good-mileage car to begin with) in getting good gas mileage.

I've not driven a CRX, but I have a friend who had one for over 10 years. He never saw 50-mpg with it, though he could get close.

GeronimoPFudgemuffin

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(chogan @ Oct 30 2006, 03:56 PM) [snapback]340840[/snapback]</div>

Hmmm, perhaps something came across that I didn't intend. That wasn't condescencion, it was more like excitment. The Insight is brilliant, but not nearly as usable as the Prius and proof of this can be found in two places; one place is the USA, where the Prius is available and (I'm told) the Insight no longer is. (does Honda even make the Insight for ANY market now?) The other place is in my garage... which is where my new Prius resides. And to think that I, formerly the Prius's biggest detractor, bought a new '06.

Yep, just as you wouldn't want to bet the farm on the Prius getting 65, though they often do. And just as the Prius--using NO fuel-management--will get 40-45 mpg, the manual Insight--with no fuel-managment--will get 55-65 mpg. That's why I posted the owner's lifetime mileage, which was mid-50s. Thing is, both the Prius and the Insight will absolutely obliterate their EPA numbers, and it doesn't take a pro to do it. I'm coming up on 6k miles on my Prius, and the LMPG is 62 mpg and some change (don't make me go look). It was 66+ up 'til two recent Insterstate trips at 75+ mph. These brought me down to around 60 mpg, but I'm working my way back up.

I think this is mostly because of Prius's planetary CVT, which I can feel HURTING my mileage at times, but which also makes the GLIDE work so elegantly that I can forgive it. From my reading, GLIDE means to Priites that "dead banding" thing. But there's also some magic available in the PSEUDO-GLIDE (my term) which has to do with backing off the throttle at speeds above 41. I reckon the engine's still running (the arrows don't always show it) but backing off allows the CVT to get the engine rpms down into the basement. During cruise, low rpms is where the fuel mileage is.

Absolutely... at least in my opinion. That the Prius does this while carrying four BIG people in complete comfort while surrounded by stereo, air bags and ABS shows that the game has changed, no? Ford and GM spent their big SUV bucks on ski trips, $350k office "redecoration" jobs and fat bonuses. Looks like Toyota spent theirs developing a new kind of car. I hate to see GM and Ford bleeding like stuck pigs, but dang-it! I'm 52 and I can still remember them moaning about having to putting seat belts in cars (1968) and how it was going to break them. Both companies appear to have been trying their dead-level best to go bust for nearly 40-years, so it's pretty hard to feel sorry for them now.

The videos I've seen show all the cars running into the same concrete barrier. However, I don't know much about this, so don't take that to the bank either. <insert smiley-thingy here>

What must be said for the Insight is also what must be said for the Prius: Though 90% (made-up figure) of folks will get very near that certain mileage figure, the cool thing is how greatly the car rewards anyone who takes a little time to figure out how the display/mileage screens work. I've noticed that, through town, the difference between minding and not-minding my throttle position is the difference between 45 mpg and 90+ mpg. A passenger would hardly notice any difference between the two methods, but the local gas station sure does.

Didn't mean to have tone in my post. I'll read myself more critically next time. I'm happy to be here.

GeronimoPFudgemuffin

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GeronimoPFudgemuffin @ Oct 30 2006, 12:08 PM) [snapback]340796[/snapback]</div>

You need to relax a little bit...I didn't attack you or the Insight. In fact, I think the Insight is a fine car, which is why I own one (though now I'm about to sell it since buying the Prius). That said, I'm not a fanboy of any car, I'm just telling you my opinion. My opinion is that the Insight only get's a modestly better mpg than a 20 year old CRX. I would have expected that technology could have gotten us much further by now if these companies had focused more energy on fuel efficiency during the '90s. Instead, Honda's mpg actually decreased during the '90s. Then they put all of this research and development into the Insight, which gets only a little better mileage than a number of older cars (CRX, Metro, Sprint).

And unless your name is Wayne G., you didn't get 123mpg average on the flats of anything with a Insight...bank that.

Vince

 

Well Vince, that'd be news to me. Y'see, I took a professor from a local college as passenger and photographer. He took pictures of the 123-mpg readout so perhaps you should relax because you just tore your pants when you told me what I didn't do.

And if you think I wasn't telling the truth, then that'd make me one lyin' son-of-a-gun, wouldn't it? And if I am, I would be below reprehensible, and not worth your otherwise studious reply. If you have a manual Insight and haven't racked up a 100+ mpg run, then it's simply because you haven't tried. Mind you, I wouldn't blame you if you didn't try because it's a lot of work. I'm not better than you (or anyone) because I did it. I was just curious, I read about it, then I drove it.

Besides, I'm a small-timer in the world of Insight mileage. Just check a few of the mileage sights and you'll see 150-mpg screens in Insights. Trips are well-documented (like mine was, for the local newspaper), so no "zero the computer at the top of the mountain" stuff is going on. My measley 123 mpg is not even in the hunt for Insight glory. It is, however, considerably better than I could've gotten in a CRX... according to my buddy who owned one for so long.

I was just chatting here and you've gotten quite snippy. Up 'til then I was quite relaxed. You might either stop reading my posts or, even better, you could've asked me if I had proof of the 123... which I do, plus an interested-but-non-partisan college professor/passenger as a witness.

I don't know what I'm typing that's pushing your button, but I'm sure not meaning to. In fact, I apologized for "tone" and said I'd watch it, whereupon you jumped down my throat with the other foot.

I have a (fairly) new '06 Prius and have been reading here for a while now. This morning I painted three consecutive 100-mpg stripes on mileage screen. Out of six bars showing, the lowest one was 75mpg (the first 55mpg one had just gone off the screen). This too is small potatoes to what some people can get with the Prius, but it's pretty good for me.

This seemed like a real nice place to talk about Prius stuff. And unlike one Honda list I was on, it seems very civilized here. I'm ready to bury some hatchet if you are.

BTW: You mind telling me who "Wayne G" is?

GeronimoPFudgemuffin

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bryanmsi @ Oct 30 2006, 10:24 AM) [snapback]340665[/snapback]</div>

Or third to the EV1 (from ten years ago!) at 0.19 and even less frontal area.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(chogan @ Oct 30 2006, 07:29 AM) [snapback]340583[/snapback]</div>

Feel free to use straight energy comparisons too! Compare the energy in gasoline to the energy in the charged batteries, and the Rav4EV, with barn door-like aerodynamics, enjoys about 120mpg (of gasoline equivalent).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bryanmsi @ Oct 29 2006, 10:29 PM) [snapback]340519[/snapback]</div>

Please don't forget that it is also MUCH cleaner. How much gasline goes into the thing - or how much one has to pay for that gasoline is only - at best - half the story. Burning that gasoline much cleaner than we've ever done before is a big deal. I still don't like where gasoline comes from, or what happens from well to tank, but at least the Prius burns it cleanly from there on out.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bryanmsi @ Oct 29 2006, 10:29 PM) [snapback]340519[/snapback]</div>

Please realize that I realize this. I also realize how terribly inefficient ICEs are. Acclerating pistons a short distance against quite a bit of fricion - only to stop them, turn them around and accelerate them in the other direction is NOT a great way to get all that wonderfully power-dense energy to the pavement. Yeah, we can burn all kinds of stuff in an ICE, but...

Sure they can be. And for the most part they aren't. And one compelling reason that they aren't made in large volume is because it is typically not energy efficient to do so! Yes, there have been many advancements in turning turkey guts into energy. And I'm all for it, in a big way! Those same turkey guts can be turned into all kinds of neat things - one of them being electricity that can be distributed cleanly as electrons across wires. Yes, ICE fuels can be very energy dense. But when we immediately throw 75% of that energy away to heat and friction... plus however much we throw away just to create the fuels, I'm still not convinced that we should be putting so much effort into keeping the ICE live.

Nothing will change over night, of course. Gasoline, and the ICE will be with us for a long time to come. I just have trouble sitting on my hands when I'm driving around every day in an alternative to an ICE vehicle that works better for us than the Prius. A vehicle for which we grow the fuel on our roof. A vehicle that produces no CO2... or any other tailpipe emissions. One that we refuel in the comfort of our garage without once spilling a drop of fuel on our shoes. Without once lifting a heavy can of anything to pour it in.

 

Darell, I read your site and clearly you do understand all these issues. Heck, I have a Segway and I ride it to work twice a week, so I know all about electric vehicles and their plusses/minuses. I know that as much as i want the Segway to revolutionize short trips, it won't. And I sure think many of the same problems apply to EVs. But I sure like riding mine!

Unfortunately, for most people, transportation is about convienience and EVs have too many compromises right now, based entirely on battery technology.

You'd need a 2,300lb battery the size of a refrigerator to match the energy stored in the Prius gas tank. Gasoline has 44 MJ/KG, Lithium Ion has 0.56 - 0.75 MJ/KG. Even allowing for the lousy 30% efficiency of the ICE and assuming 100% efficiency of the EV (neither of which is totally true, the Prius ICE is 35% efficient and the EV powertrain is purportedly around 90%), you still have gasoline with a "real" power content of 13 MJ/kg. And that's 26x more power per pound than Lithium. 52x more than NiMH.

In my mind, the idea solution would be a fuel-cell type device which could use the highly compact chemical fuels directly at near 100% efficiency without the clumsy and wasteful burning of the fuel with reciprocating pistons. Even a Stirling engine would be an improvement. Efficient use of chemical fuels combined with electric propulsion would be unbeatable!

 

I haven't gotten snippy at all, GeronimoPFudgemuffin, I'm just telling you what I think, which I've attempted to back up with evidence. Any impression you have of me jumping down your throat or whatever is imagined. "Wayne G" is Wayne Gerdes, the acknowledged king of hypermiling. Below are some links to let you know about Wayne and his modified Insight records. The reason I'm confident that you couldn't get 123mpg over a 25 mile stretch of flat road is because even well known hypermilers can't do that without modifying their Insights, such as the results you see below. 123mpg would be a spectacular achievement, not just something you do with regularity in a stock Insight. You seem to be implying that the Insight can do that kind of mileage with frequency, and it simply cannot. Either that, or you need to teach Wayne and the rest of us how to hypermile properly, because clearly you know more than we do.

Your assertions were that the Insight gets FAR better mileage than a CRX, and I'm telling you it doesn't, at least when in average use. Any car, Insight, CRX, or Geo Metro, is going to get impressive mileage results when hypermiled, and the Insight moreso than others, but not with the average driver at the wheel. The EPA estimates are supposed to represent what an average driver is supposed to expect of their car. I'm not going to defend the EPA numbers as gospel, either, as most Prius drivers already know. But at the same time, they often do represent what drivers can get with their cars, and they serve as a point of comparison. In this case, I listed a few cars that are EPA rated for mpg that are just below what the Insight is EPA rated at. And I still stand by my original statement: I think fuel efficiency numbers should be much better than they are for modern cars, especially when compared to what they were for those 20 year old cars.

And I also don't believe that you could have gotten 92mpg over a tankful (956 miles on 10.4 gallons), especially without engine-off coasting. Again, that would be a spectacular achievement, even for a Insight. Especially a stock Insight that you only borrowed for three weeks (suggesting that it's a car you don't even have a great deal of familiarity with).

Vince


Some links of note:

Insight user's website:
http://www.insightcentral.net

Wayne's website:
http://www.cleanmpg.com


http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/05/2006_tour_de_so.html

Monte Carlo Rally. In the Monte Carlo style Rally, Gerdes drove a stock Insight from Chicago on a single tank of gas achieving 90.4 mpg and captured the grand prize of the Monte Carlo-style fuel efficiency Championship. Two other independent teams, Jack Lee from Venice, FL and Willy Williford from Campo, CA, had added turbochargers to their Honda Insights, which have a 57 mpg EPA rating. Jack Lee’s vehicle demonstrated fuel economy of more than 76 mpg.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...6080301403.html

Fons also suggested I talk to someone he's dubbed "America's greatest hypermiler," Wayne Gerdes. The nuclear power plant operator in Illinois ("producing electricity with zero greenhouse gas emissions," Gerdes observed) averaged more than 90 mpg for more than a year driving a manual transmission Honda Insight. He was part of a team that drove a Toyota Prius for more than 1,200 miles, in two straight days of driving, on a single tank of gas, an effort that was featured in an HBO Earth Day Special "Too Hot Not to Handle."


http://hybridfest.com/2006HF.htm
Part of the fun at Hybridfest was a 20 miles Hybridfest MPG Challenge. This was an event where hybrid car owners could take their hybrid car on a 20-mile route to see what gas mileage they could achieve. It was amazing to see the results.

Car/Name State MPG

Modified Insight
Wayne Gerdes IL 150
Mike Dabrowski CT 121.9
Randall Burkhalter OK 108.5
-
Insight 5-speed
Justin Fons WI 117.2
Tim Thompson WI 95.6
Chuck Thomas TX 82.9
-
Prius 2004 - 2006
Samuel Cooke WI 99.9
George Kalkas IL 99.9
Dan Kroushl PA 99.9
Al Walker MA 99.2
Dave Bassage WV 97.9
Tom Zimmerman IL 97.6
Jack Wear ON 94
Wayne Mitchell IL 88.1
Erik Haltrecht ON 82
Jerad Parish WI 74
Kenneth J. Kueler WI 72.9
Jim Bolton WI 72.7
Shane Brath WI 68.2
Matt Garrison WI 61.9
-
Civic 2006
Shane Richardson WI 73.2
-
Insight CVT
Kevin Moot MN 71.6
Paula Collum OH 59.4
-
Civic pre-2006
Michael Beres MI 68.1

 

No, you told me you KNEW that I didn't get 123 mpg. The Insight's computer says I did.

Thank you. That was my point. You'll recall that I posted the owner's LMPG average for clarity.

Never did. It will, however do it. Or at least, the computer tells me it did. Your argument is with the Insight's computer, not with me. I'm only the messenger... which they used to shoot, and, apparently, still do.

You flatter yourself with the "we."

Again, you can argue with the Insight's computer. I have the pictures. Yes, it was tough. It involved hour-after-gruelling-hour of 29-35 mph travel. I'll check my stats that I kept, but I'm pretty sure it was 10.4 on the gallons. If it was more than that, then I owe an apology, but it was wouldn't have varied much since I do know that I was in the low 90-mpg range.

Your links only strenghten my position. Perhaps you look in the "number of posts" column while trolling for newbies to pee on. "Only five posts? This guy couldn't know anything!"

I've been "hypermiling" since 1974, but it wasn't called that then. I barely missed out representing my Toyota dealer at a big Southeastern region gas mileage contest. Remember the "See how much car your money can buy" ad campaign that Toyota did circa 1975? I still have my 33 & 1/3 LP of Al Hirt and Toyota Jazz All-Stars (or something like that) that the dealership gave me for taking the mileage test.

SIDE NOTE: For this contest, Corollas were fitted with a clear, 1-quart bottle that hung outside the passenger window. An official rode shotgun and worked the on/off valve under the bottle. Whoever went the farthest on the quart was the winner.

So, who was it that beat me and got to represent my Toy dealer at the gas mileage fest at the Darlington, SC racetrack? My buddy with the CRX Honda that I mentioned. The road comprised a string of gently rolling hills. I made it almost up the last hump and coasted to a stop. My buddy and I talked about how to do better, then he went to try. He made it over that last hump and used the downhill to coast nearly 1/4 mile farther than my distance. So Keith was in and I was out.

Okay, you say you're not being snippy, but you publicly accused me of having lied about my mileage in the Insight. Then you post links to Mr. Gerdes where it says that he's done better mileage over an entire year than I was able to get on one lousy tank. What I did was small potatoes to what Gerdes has done. (I'd read about him, but didn't know him as "Wayne G" only as "Gerdes") Gerdes logs a 150-mpg average and you tell me I can't do 90+? This sounds suspicously like a way of whining because you can't do it. Or rather, you could, but haven't stepped up to the plate.

I'm not sure how much I know about "hypermiling," but I've been at it for almost 33 years. I also used to modify my cars (ignition timing, cam timing, C.R., jetting, driving by vacuum gauge and tach, neither of which came installed, etc.) but, as you know, this is more difficult and expensive on newer cars. My dad died last year and, knowing how much I wanted one, left almost enough money for his handicapped son to buy a new Prius. So I did. And no tears please, you've already shown where you stand on the issue of human kindness and brotherly love.

BTW: The Prius numbers I posted from yesterday's driving were (of course) using pulse & glide, and were the best I've done so far. I drive only on real highways, so P&G is not something I can do all the time. I took a trip to my favorite little spot by the rapids, then zeroed the computer and headed straight out to my favorite road (okay shape, but virtually unused) to see what I could get over a 45-minute period. By the time first first 50-odd mpg bar scrolled off the screen, of the six remaining, three were topped out. "Low boy" was so close to the 75-mpg mark that I'll just take it at that.

Also, if you have a manual Insight, in good fettle, I'll come to where you are and show you a 90+ mpg tank, but Gerdes would probably be happy to show you a 100+ gallon tank, a feat which I was not able to acheive, and readily admit my sub-Gerdes status in the pecking order. Not only did I not post anything untrue, I didn't even post anything worthy of note.

I'm offering the handshake of truce here. My guess is that it's not likely anyone besides Jerry Springer fans are interested in a continuance. But you're dead wrong about my not getting the Insight to 123, and you should write Gerdes, get some data, and admit it.

GeronimoPFudgemuffin

 

I came back from Scotland in the late 70's with a new mind set on small cars and gas prices. I got married and traded in my Ford Pick-up and got a 78 Subaru FE. It was good for my small family (kids were small then). It was good on gas (and we thought the prices were bad then) and it was good in snow. I was very happy about my life. When I was dicharged and I came home. My Father started on me about my Jap beer can car, that his grandkids weren't safe in it. After a year I buckled and traded in the Subaru for a Chevy Nova. Finally 25 years later I am again very Happy and extremly pleased about my car. Even my Dad is amazed in the Prius.

Though this time I could afford to keep the pick-up (Dodge 4x4 = 14 mpg) as a stand-by in case something needs hauling.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bryanmsi @ Oct 30 2006, 10:56 PM) [snapback]341145[/snapback]</div>

Yikes. Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree then. We don't just use our EV for the occassional short trip. It is driven to work every week day - rain or shine. And then driven in the evening after work for various errands/ dinner, etc. And then we drive it on longer trips every weekend. In other words, we use our EV like most other people use any other "normal" car. Our EV is our primary car, and has revolutionized our transportation in that it makes are vehicle trips far more convenient. Let me say that again - The main reason we use the EV as the Primary car and the Prius as the secondary car is because the EV is FAR more convenient. The reason it is convenient? Because of that pesky battery technology.

Honestly, home refueling is the most convenient aspect of EV ownership - something we'll never see in a gasoline car. I can't count how many hundreds of hours we've saved by NOT having to drive to a gas station and wait around to fill and pay.

Turns out that most folks don't need all that energy density of a gas tank. That's one point where many folks are confused. Most folks probably fill up the Prius once every week or two. Most folks I said... not everybody. And that means they don't drive 100 miles every day. In my EV, we have 100 miles of range every morning without having to go to the gas station ever. And a modern EV would have 250-300 miles of range every morning.

Where I have to compromise is in ICE vehicle ownership. I HAVE to drive to the gas station. I HAVE to change the oil. I HAVE to (eventually) get it tuned up. I HAVE to burn gasoline. I HAVE to be tied to the price of oil/gas.

Not trying to argue here, just trying to explain our direct experience in EV ownership/drivering. We CHOOSE to drive the EV over the Prius on a daily basis. The Prius is driven about once or twice per month where the EV is driven every day. And the reason we do this is simply because the EV is more convenient and more enjoyable to drive.