Imagine if we were able to meet the most knowledgeable and educated person from the 14th century...

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by burritos, Jul 16, 2007.

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  1. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Jul 18 2007, 11:08 AM) [snapback]480888[/snapback]</div>
    So Islam lends itself to terror and murder based on the individuals interpretation of their scriptures - that Islam finds murder and terror as ethical and moral and correct?

    You are trying to dissect RELIGION down to a very minuscule level - and that is self-serving here - but still proves my point.

    Pork by definition is non-Kosher - and no I dont eat it.

    And you are correct, religions provide a framework of morality and ethics - man cannot because it is dependent on consensus opinion with man and not so with religion unless you believe Islam to be capable of this.

    I do not know many immoral religious people - that is mutually exclusive - but it is a vital cornerstone in your construct here. Nice try.
     
    #41 dbermanmd, Jul 18, 2007
  2. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 18 2007, 10:23 AM) [snapback]480896[/snapback]</div>
    You totally know that's not what I said, not what I meant...and it's completely not true. Any individual in any religion can interpret ancient scripture any way they wish to justify that individual's personal point of view. There is nothing inherent in Islam that lends itself to terrror and murder any more than there is in Christianity, Judaism, or Buddism.

    The hell it does.

    So, is it immoral if I do? Is it immoral if a Christian does? If so then is his religion wrong...I thought you said it's difficult to be immoral if you're religious.

    Again, religion is, IMO, a man-made construct. So, by definition man is the final arbiter of morallity. I know you don't agree with that point of view and that's the rub we'll never get past.

    Do you know many immoral non-religious people?
    No offense, but who you know or don't know is completely irrelevant. The fact that most people who commit immoral offenses claim a religion is more than proof enough that religion does not make one more or less moral. It is within the individual.
     
    #42 efusco, Jul 18, 2007
  3. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Jul 18 2007, 11:31 AM) [snapback]480901[/snapback]</div>
    A very self serving construct and convenient - most religious people will respectfully disagree with you. And you are correct, that a rub that will rub till we are both raw.

    immoral non-religious people? bill clinton? sorry, had to go there :) I agree in that the first person is irrelevant here. it is my posit that mankind's current consensus opinion on morality and ethics is wrong and makes religion relevant and will continue to make religion relevant.

    and you are right again, it is up to the individual ultimately - to either follow religious morals and ethics or fickle man-based morals (like the nazis who were just doing their job as they turned the ovens on or dropped the saran gas into the chambers)
     
    #43 dbermanmd, Jul 18, 2007
  4. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 18 2007, 11:00 AM) [snapback]480916[/snapback]</div>
    No more self-serving than the construct that religion is devined by a god...and some aren't. And I'm fully aware that all religious people would disagree. But my view is no more or less valid than thiers.

    Clinton is a Christian.
    And I suggest that the dogmatic beliefs compelled by religion are the direct cause of many of the troubles the world now is experiencing. Morals are relevant, but until the religious differences can find a happy place to coexist the problems will only expand as those who are religious continue to insist upon their moral superiority and ground that belief in their religion.
    Again, the Nazis were acting as Christians. And religious morals are no more or less fickle than 'athiest' morals. There are variations across the board.
     
    #44 efusco, Jul 18, 2007
  5. burritos

    burritos Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 18 2007, 08:43 AM) [snapback]480840[/snapback]</div>
    What evidence do you have that thor doesn't exist? Or do you acknowledge that thor is just as likely as your god to exist?
     
    #45 burritos, Jul 18, 2007
  6. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Jul 18 2007, 12:07 PM) [snapback]480922[/snapback]</div>
    Clinton is a born Christian - i do not know if he is a practicing Christian - or if he practices a political form of it like his wife.

    The Nazi's were not acting as Christians - they were acting as Nazi's - they were Christians before the Holocaust perhaps but i would posit that it was their loss of faith that permitted Hitler and the subsequent Holocaust to happen - underscoring my point.

    Is it Islam that slams airplanes into buildings or beheads journalists or blows up mosques?? Again, are Muslims who commit acts of terror/murder following the teachings of their religion?
     
    #46 dbermanmd, Jul 18, 2007
  7. burritos

    burritos Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 18 2007, 08:57 AM) [snapback]480850[/snapback]</div>
    In so much as the christians did during the crusades.
     
    #47 burritos, Jul 18, 2007
  8. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 18 2007, 11:13 AM) [snapback]480929[/snapback]</div>
    So you get the priveledge of not calling them Christian based upon their acts? How is that not fickle?

    Again, (3rd time I believe) the answer is NO. It is extremists acting in the name of their religion and their own [fickle] interpretation of their religion that are doing these things.
     
    #48 efusco, Jul 18, 2007
  9. Proco

    Proco Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Jul 18 2007, 12:17 PM) [snapback]480933[/snapback]</div>
    I'm no doctor, but it looks like you're going to need these soon ...
    [​IMG]
     
    #49 Proco, Jul 18, 2007
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