1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Inauguration Excess while world suffers

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by Robert Taylor, Jan 21, 2005.

  1. tag

    tag Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    2,526
    19
    0
    Location:
    Chicago
    I found a pic that reminds me of the fattest of our four cats:

    [Broken External Image]:http://www.gotlaughs.com/funpages/crazylazy_cat.jpg


    .....except for the color, that's him and his lifestyle.
     
  2. jeepien

    jeepien Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2005
    165
    4
    0
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Back then, we had a budget surplus and a body bag deficit.

    But that was then.
     
  3. pepa

    pepa New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2004
    102
    0
    0
    Location:
    Rockford, Illinois
    Yep - because back then we still had World Trade Center. Remember?
     
  4. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    14,487
    1,518
    0
    Location:
    Spokane, WA
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Mr. Taylor, you are living in a fantasy world. While everyone can have their opinions of Bush, of the war, of who or what is responsible for the health care crisis, it is a simple fact that in this wealthiest of all countries more people than ever before in our recent history lack health insurance, and those who do not have health insurance lack for basic health care: the regular check-ups that prevent disease or catch it early. Very, very, very few of the homeless get a free check. In fact, most of the homeless work full time, but minimum wage is less than the cost of housing, and by the time they buy food there is nothing left for rent.

    I spent five years working with homeless men (our shelter was small and had no room for families) and I can tell you that while a very few were homeless by choice, most were homeless because of alcoholism, mental illness, or physical injury. And roughly 1/3 to 1/4 of them were Vietnam Veterans whose mental illness and/or alcoholism was directly related to the war. Your proud and free president, extolling the bravery of the soldiers, has turned his back on the veterans of previous wars (as has every president since that war).

    And on cold winter nights, and mosquito-infested summer nights, when sleeping out of doors is the hardest, every shelter in town is full and turns people away. This in Fargo. And I assure you it's a lot worse in every major city in the country.

    Any time anybody praises the soldiers in Iraq, I ask them what are they doing for the broken veterans of Vietnam? And if anybody is thinking of enlisting, I suggest you first visit your local homeless shelter and take a look at the veterans of past wars who have been tossed onto the garbage heap by the very people they served.

    And as far as Clinton, Gore, and Kerry, they are no better than Bush.
     
  5. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    13,439
    641
    0
    Location:
    Winnipeg Manitoba
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Scary pic, change the color of the fur and that is my cat exactly. I didn't have to train him how to eat and poop, he picked that up all by himself.
     
  6. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    13,439
    641
    0
    Location:
    Winnipeg Manitoba
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    You won't get any argument from me about that. When the disaster was first reported, nobody knew the full scale of it. So countries like the U.S. made the initial offer of aid based on what, 15,000 reported dead?

    Here in Canada, PM Martin, or "Mr. Shipping Tycoon Who Doesn't Pay His Taxes But As Finance Minister Expected Everybody Else To," made the rather lavish and bold financial offers of aid and the shipments of food and essentials.

    The only problem, Canada doesn't have heavy airlift capability. There is a ragtag fleet of C-130 Hercules that are the highest-time Hercules fleet on the planet. They'd never make it. For fascinating reading, check out this URL:

    http://www.theurc.com

    So Canada will do what it always does: publicly knock down the United States, then ring up the U.S. Air Force and bum a C-5 or a C-17. Oops, sorry, they're all busy. Try back later. To avoid major egg on face, Martin finally managed to rent some suitable heavy cargo planes:

    Antonov heavy lift aircraft. From the Russians.

    THE RUSSIANS!

    How pathetic is that??

    As far as the issue of how a country treats its veterans, look at other countries. American Vets have it good in comparison. Here in Canada, you're only a "veteran" if you served up to the Korean War. All those "peacekeepers" wounded overseas do not count.

    So a lot of countries blabber on and on about how "generous" and "caring" they are, even Castro's Cuba and the Communist Chinese. America really can't be all that bad if folks are willing to risk a leaky innertube and hungry sharks to land on her shores.

    I'm not sure how long it will last though. Thanks to the scandalous incompetence at the UN, the wealthier countries are being sucked dry. Look at all the debt. If the Global Economy should ever sputter to a stop, it's over.

    Speaking of Cuba or China, if you live there and p*** and moan about something, they toss you in prison or they off you. Or fire up a tank and flatten you like a waffle.

    We now have PM Martin in China dreaming up a new trade deal (We send them boatloads of money, they send us cheap crap and throw Canadians out of work) and he pointedly looks the other way about the issue of "human rights."
     
  7. IsrAmeriPrius

    IsrAmeriPrius Progressive Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2004
    4,333
    7
    0
    Location:
    Southern California
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pepa\";p=\"65429)</div>
    Iraq and Saddam Hussein, as despicable as he is, did not present a credible threat to out security. That is why this administration's rationale for going to war keeps changing on almost a weekly basis.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pepa\";p=\"65429)</div>
    You can live in your fantasy world. It will not change the fact that under the Shrub, the haves are doing better and the have nots are faring worse.

    Good jobs with insurance and other benefits are disappearing and are replaced by non skilled (hamburger flipper) jobs that pay less and have few, if any, benefits.

    Unemployment numbers are higher than they were during the second Clinton term and the underemployment rates are not measured by the government.

    Lastly, those who exhausted their unemployment insurance benefits, despite the fact that they still are unemployed, are not counted for purposes of calculating the unemployment rates.
     
  8. Robert Taylor

    Robert Taylor New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2004
    451
    0
    0
    Location:
    Rocket City
    Dainel,

    Lets get something straight, I donate most of my charity, and thousands a year of it, to a local shelter called Breaking Free Rescue Mission. The key people know my voice when I call. I KNOW a lot of people who are on Medicaid or Medicare and those who are ill because they are addicted to alchol get an SSI check and a medicaid card and by golly, they get all the darn medical care they want for zero co-pays or deductables. I know several people at the local DHR office, they look for more clients at the same time.

    You wrote about a health care crisis, but there isn't any. The healh insurance crisis is really a manufactured ploy for those who want to saddle us with a Canadian styled wait list system for health care.

    Understand something, in a socialist system you as an idividual on the socialist medical system YOU ARE AN EXPENSE to be reduced in cost, or even killed off when expedient, as in The Netherlands.

    Under a free market health care system, YOU ARE A VALUED CUSTOMER who is wooed, catered to and sought after just like Blockbuster tries to get you to rent from them. Frankly, I do NOT want to wait for medical care for months, I want to be treated like I can go to the next health care provider in the phone book. Hospitals here advertize for people to use their services, they value our business. I don't want an encounter with Nurse Ratchet in the Canadian system.

    As far as Bush goes, I understand and support the goals of spreading elected government. I wrote I did not know if it would work, some think it can't in the middle east. We shall see. But the vision he has is the same spirit that comes from our own declaration of independence.
     
  9. Robert Taylor

    Robert Taylor New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2004
    451
    0
    0
    Location:
    Rocket City
    I have heard the "burger flipping" refrain twice now, once when the Reagan/Bush the Elder adminsitration was in power and again eight years later. The data just doesn't support that conclusion totally but I happen to agree that some decrease of benefits is taking place, and I shall tell you why. Co-pays and deductables in health insurance drive off those who otherwise would burden the system with usage demands that drive up costs. And think about this, Canadian companies do not have medical expenses for employees because the employees pay 100% of the costs through taxation, so US companies are going to an employee paying health care costs model out of competitive reasons.

    Understand something, the government has no money of its own, it gets its money from taxation of the workers. So transferring costs from individuals to the government plan does not shift who pays. The government has no money of its own, and there is no free ride.

    There are changes that have taken place in the unemployment rates over 25 years but the big difference is that the 2% of marginally employables has been put onto disablity or SSI. They still work part time when they can, under the table, but these people cannot make year in and year out 40 hour a week employees. Example, I know some bi-polar folks, good people but when they have an every other year episode they go into the hospital for 1 to 4 weeks and spend three or so months getting back to stable mentally. Some have recurrent health problems like migrain headaches that come and go. These people are all but disfunctional when those things strike them.

    And technology is making it much more competitive for all white collar workers. I do not have to tell you about call centers in India or programming services in the former soviet empire, this is just stuff we have to live with, it is a competitive world and ever more so. We can't go back to the time when we were half the worlds output because WWII destroyed the industrial base of the rest of the industrialized world.

    No president can prevent the world from becoming more competitive, but we can do things to prevent ourselves from being competitive and such things are minimum wage laws, etc.
     
  10. richard schumacher

    richard schumacher shortbus driver

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    7,663
    1,040
    0
    Location:
    United States
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Uh-huh. When it's your kids, or yourself at age 56 flipping burgers, then gummint-paid insurance and welfare suddenly looks like a real good idea.

    History will note that 9-11 didn't bankrupt the US. Neocon opportunists did.
     
  11. richard schumacher

    richard schumacher shortbus driver

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    7,663
    1,040
    0
    Location:
    United States
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    When it's your own adult kids flipping burgers, or yourself at what should have been retirement age, then gummint-paid health insurance suddenly looks like a real good idea. The only question is whether Republicans will adopt that as policy in time to avoid getting voted back into the minority.

    History will note that 9-11 didn't bankrupt the US; tax-cutting borrow-and-spend neocons did.
     
  12. Robert Taylor

    Robert Taylor New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2004
    451
    0
    0
    Location:
    Rocket City
    "The government" does not pay for anything. Taxpayers do. Another words, workers. Don't sweat it too much, we have a Roman Empire collapse around the corner as the baby boomers break the entire social security scheme. Two workers are not going to be able to support one social security receipent and all the other government we love to tax ourselves for. Nope, won't happen. Will the dollar survive? Can we get rid of these social programs before we go the way of Argentina? It does not look promising right now.

    Let me repeat this, the government pays for nothing, taxpayers do.
     
  13. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    13,439
    641
    0
    Location:
    Winnipeg Manitoba
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    I have to side with Robert Taylor on this one.

    I've lived in the U.S. (Utah) and now in Canada. First of all, there is NO SUCH THING as "free" health care. There is a HUGE health care crisis in Canada. The system is bankrupt and waiting lines are endless.

    Here in Canada, people are dying as they simply cannot get the care they need. We have folks stacked up in the corridors, and that's in the "Emergency" room. There are caps on doctor salaries, so guess what? A lot of Canadian doctors are heading to greener pastures: the United States.

    I find it very amusing that a recent Simpsons episode had Homer driving to Winnipeg to get "cheaper" Canadian meds. Guess what? Most of the newer meds are not even available in Canada.

    As an example, my Mom has acid reflux. Prilosec OTC works very well for her, so we routinely drive down to Minnesota or ND to buy the 48-day box of Prilosec at Wally World. Here in Canada, the only similar med is Losec, which is prescription-only and NOT covered by the gummit health insurance.

    It costs MORE, WAY more, to buy Losec in Canada than Prilosec OTC in the United States. I've never seen Michael Moore or any other Democratic apologist mention this. Wonder why??

    Since the Canuck taxpayer is, in effect, subsidizing meds here in Canada, the Liberal government is seeking to ban all cross-border sales of meds to Americans. Since many meds are in short supply, this is one of the few things, perhaps the ONLY thing, the Liberal gov has done that actually makes sense.

    If I recall, our current job outsourcing binge (High tech, manufacturing, etc) was set in motion when PM Chretien, here in Canada, and Slick Willie, signed all these good trade deals with the Chinese. That is, they're good for the Chinese: we send them boatloads of money, they send us cheap crap and throw folks here in North America out of work. I believe China is now a "most favored nation" whatever the h*** that means.

    Never mind that the Chinese have no qualms about using tank tracks to make a waffle out of a human being, that they use prison labor and indentured servitude, and that they laugh at us while exploiting our greed and selfishness. Oh, they also appear to be exempt from any of the emissions requirements that Greenpeace and The Sierra Club are always whining about.

    What did Slick Willie, or for that matter Gore the Bore (He DID invent the Internet though. Give him "credit" where it's due), to uphold basic human rights in China? Or to protect the American worker?

    I find it very ironic that Dubya was labeled an a** hole when he attempted to put duties on cheap imported steel. This was to protect the American steel industry. What did Slick Willie ever do to protect American jobs? I seem to recall he dramatically increased H1 visa limits, to allow more foreign workers.

    I think it's natural to have cross-border trade between the U.S. and Canada, as the two nations are a lot more similar than they care to admit. When trade is used to line the pockets of a few large multinationals at the expense of many jobs, it's no longer fair.

    There was a brief glory period during the nineties when the American economy boomed. A lot of that, especially the Dot Com thing that Slick took credit for, was a temporary bubble that left a lot of workers displaced. It was a nice dream but it ran out of steam as Slick's second term ran down.

    Yet even now, compare the unemployment rate in the U.S. to Canada, or the EU countries. This was briefly discussed by The Underground Royal Commission at:

    http://www.theurc.com

    About the only bubble left is in India and China, and they're running desperately short on energy, especially oil. I'm wondering if China will begin to start collecting all those debt IOU's with the U.S. and Canada. For example, they could be eyeing the Athabasca Tar Sands in northern Alberta, which has proven oil reserves 5-10 times that of the entire mid east.

    As far as the war in Iraq, that was a long time coming . I find it amusing that Iraq pointedly ignored 17 UN "resolutions" while doing their thing. The Russians, Germans, and French were, of course, opposed to Gulf War 2.

    They also made plenty of money off Iraq and especially the Oil For Food program too, so I can see their reluctance to have the global spotlight suddenly show up in Iraq.

    Once all the baby boomers retire, the entire house of cards will collapse anyway. So perhaps we should be worrying about more important things than how much the inauguration cost. Look at how much Sundance costs, or the Academy Awards.

    Perhaps we should have a few acres set aside in BFE, and build a house that can run without grid electricity.
     
  14. Robert Taylor

    Robert Taylor New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2004
    451
    0
    0
    Location:
    Rocket City
    I found myself nodding my head reading Jayman's post.

    Permit me to list some of my current grievances with the Sierra Club, environmentalists in general...

    1. Exempting any nation from some proposed environmental scheme is just daft, it encourages thereby the plundering of the earth and pollution that invariably ends up affecting the worldwide ecosystem. The communist nations, past and present, were and are the worst polluters but the breath of environmentalists that get near a newspaper column or microphone are dedicated to screaming about those who contribute much less to the disaster of various chemicals that diffuse themselves globally, and it is typically a lot of venom directed towards various USA politicians. It just erodes credibility.
    2. Recycling programs are PC nonsense. What we collect is either a mandated profitable item for a municipality or something we can safely bury until it turns to coal. As an example, my wife and I break the law along with many other church members by donating our profitable recyclables to the church, which turns them into cash. Municipal ordiannces do NOT permit this in the USA, the city proclaims itself the owner of something the homeowner bought and demands the revenue from the recycling thereof. Even if this is a seldom enforced law, it sticks in my craw that some government entity takes my property without compensation. I should be able to donate my profitable recyclables to any entity I want to. But I digress, the real problem with these programs is that I have NO OPTION on disposing of batteries, tires, paint cans, cleaning fluids, electronic components, etc. We put that stuff in a dumpster to go to a landfill, or our mandated bin, which then takes it to the landfill. This makes zero sense, recycling programs should concentrate on those items which pose an environmental threat. Wood and wood based products like pulp, paper, etc. buried in the earth turn to coal over time. Sticking evnironmentally dangerous stuff in the ground makes zero sense. Current policy is a follow the money thing, its all about a tax, demanding the valuables and charging for incorrect disposal of the dangerous. We have been had on recycling programs mandated by cities.
    3. Why did environmentalists demand an end to nuclear power plant construction and instead prefer the burning of fossil fuels for electrical generation? Obviously the French had vastly better sense than the North American environmentalist, they obtain 80% of their nuclear power from a standardized program, no problems.
    4. Why harp about this CAFE nonsense when cheap fossil fuels encourage people to buy vastly more vehicle than what they need? The simple way to discourage the use of fossil fuels is just to tax the stuff more, it then engages market forces for product substitution and innovation. People would quickly tire of the 3.00 gas for an SUV and get something correctly sized for their needs. CAFE has been a disaster, and the law of unintended consequences kicked in and people bought the exempted large trucks to enjoy along with the cheap fuel. It killed off the station wagon, which was a vastly better people mover overall than the truck based models that have become popular with the idiotic CAFE business.
    4. The myth of wind and sun energy. As long as fossil fuels are cheap, there is no incentive to do product substitution. Taxing fossil fuels makes all these alternatives much more attractive as subsitutes.

    Environmentalists have consistently crafted policies that are totally idiotic in regard to the economic consequences. Why is that? Why is it that they moan about the birds being hurt on windmill farms? Why are they so ignorant of Econ 101, 201, the basics? Did these people go to university at all? What did they study there? Devoid of real world sense is the common feeling I get when seeing the lockstep mindless repetition of some PC idiocy that does not show some intellectual curosity.
     
  15. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    13,439
    641
    0
    Location:
    Winnipeg Manitoba
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Speaking of environmentalists, how about that favorite icon here in Canada: David Suzuki.

    For a long time on CBC (Funded by the Canadian taxpayer), he had a show called The Nature Of Things. Liked to blame Canada and, of course, the U.S. for all the environmental woes in the world. Especially pollution in the Far Arctic.

    I was dumbfounded when he just recently had a show in which he claimed most of the arctic pollution came from - drum roll please - Siberia.

    All that sulfur and heavy metals from metal refining, all the radionuclides from secret nuclear accidents that made Chernobyl look like a Chinese firecracker, all the nuclear waste residue from a "creative" waste disposal system (Dump the reactors at sea), all of it from Mother Russia.

    Of course, some folks still have a great deal of respect for this "environmentalist."
     
  16. Robert Taylor

    Robert Taylor New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2004
    451
    0
    0
    Location:
    Rocket City
    Oh yeah, I am really beginning to love the astute intellect of the Jayman.

    Hey, I'll tell you why its suddenly the Siberian mention as a problem. Its because the status of Russia has changed, it is no longer the socialist workers paradise that these people fervently believe in, so they are gradually stepping up the ire at the elected government that has a flat tax of 13% and a growing economy.

    Now, if the Russians would only revert back to being the mass grave filled workers paradise then the wacko left would again be completely mute about their manifest sins. Like they do with Castro.
     
  17. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    13,439
    641
    0
    Location:
    Winnipeg Manitoba
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Well Robert, I get very frustrated that otherwise well-meaning folks appear to support all those "apologists" who carefully distort The Truth to satisfy a dark purpose. Sadly, it's nothing new.

    Case in point: Walter Duranty, who won a Pulitzer, while he was at The New York Times writing glowing articles about how wonderful Stalinist Russia was. That is, this Duranty convinced the world (At least some readers in the United States) that there were no Gulag's, no torture, and the starvation of +12 million Ukrainians didn't happen.

    Only after the well-deserved collapse of the USSR have we gotten a glimpse of the true horror behind The Iron Curtain. How workers in their Glorious Socialist Workers Paradise dropped dead while building a road, and the road was paved right over top of them. How Ukrainian farmers opposed to the Collectivization of farms - another sinister crackpot scheme - and their families were starved by that madman.

    Yet this Duranty is still recorded in the history books as a nice fellow with his "well deserved" Pulitzer Prize, not an evil person who gave good PR to a sinister regime. At the very least, we need to update all those history books pronto, and his Pulitzer should be rescinded.

    There were also apologists for Hitler's Nazi party. I doubt anybody seriously entertains the notion that The Holocaust didn't happen, or that the numbers were "much less" than quoted.

    Here in Winnipeg, the recently deceased media tycoon "Izzy" Israel Asper's estate has started work on a Holocaust Memorial, which I have already donated to. Once we forget - by accident or purposely - the horrible things committed against the human race, we are no longer deserving of the rights and freedoms that came at such a high price.

    I find it mind boggling and incredibly disturbing that people can wear such selective filters on their glasses. In this case, the filters are so selective the glasses are opaque.

    Does the United States have problems? You bet it does. So does every other member of the G8. But last time I checked, nobody has been turned into a human waffle by tank tracks in the streets of America. These problems can be fixed through hard work and, most importantly, the willpower to do so.

    Once you lose the willpower to seek out The Truth, all bets are off. To actually embrace Socialism/Communism? Scary.

    So that's why I got so ticked off hearing all this nonsense about the inauguration costs. The fact that Kofi Annan's son was heavily involved in the UN Oil For Food scandal hardly ranked mention at all. Yeesh.

    That was, quite literally, blood money.
     
  18. Robert Taylor

    Robert Taylor New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2004
    451
    0
    0
    Location:
    Rocket City
    Jayman,

    Well put but lets cast our eye towards todays mass murdering Marxist, Robert Mugambi. When you have a president for life Marxist thug like Mugambi, you have a mass murderer and after 20 years of power he has now encouraged the siezure of all productive commercial farms and has encouraged these takeovers by the ignorant.

    He knows what he is doing too, it is a policy of delilberate national starvation, a mass murder of his own people in Zimbabwe. It took far less time for the breadbasket of Africa to become a zone of starvation than what I thought possible. The utter destruction of all commercial farming infrastructure, the herds, the equipment, the people, have all been slaughtered, plundered or driven off.

    When the farms do not produce a surplus anymore, then the people in the cities cannot eat. And what has happened is that his exhorted invaders have done mere subsistence farming, they grow only just enough for their own immediate family.

    Castro. I have a personal friend who was a young villiage boy when the communisists dug a large hole and committed mass executions of many of the small village. As Raul put it, it is most effective for control. Mass graves of Castro's victims are all over Cuba.

    Chavez. This Castro wannabe is busy seizing the productive commerical farms. He is following the Mugambe policy in much quicker fashion. There was a recall election in which his people did all the vote counting, exit polls shown him being ousted 60/40, he proclaimed that his vote counters showed that he won 60/40. I doubt if there will be anymore elections. This Marxists career closely mirrors that of Hitler, attempted to take over the government by force and then is elected. Our dolt Carter gave his blessing to this killer, as he did the Marxist Ortega.

    I believe it is a grievous sin for America to leave that mass murdering Castro in power. Bush should take him out.
     
  19. removeum

    removeum Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2004
    407
    0
    0
    Location:
    El Paso, TX
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    II
  20. Robert Taylor

    Robert Taylor New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2004
    451
    0
    0
    Location:
    Rocket City
    Thanks, I read this piece already but I want to make the point about Bush. This man has been derided as simplistic and incurious. What that means is he has a singleminded focus on changing the course of history by destroying the various dictators, potentates and tyrants that create the conditons for which an Al Quada can exist. He puts one foot ahead of another, focused on that goal. His broad vision of elected governments bringing a more peaceful world I have long agreed with.

    Will the policy in Iraq succeed? I do not know but I know we need to try. In Afghanistan, we hear little about the people's view about having competitive elections. We hear about the misery of the Taliban trying to topple the elected government. We don't know about the support the majority of votes have to have for the government they voted for. We know that we have to continue to help nurture this infant of an elected government or it will collapse.

    We cannot take only no risk ventures because the enemy got strong enough to kill us on our homeland. We are taking the battle to them with our military and our founding beliefs. Our foe, Al Quada, is in trouble. We have hurt them and continue to do so.