1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Induction Reasoning......

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by ETC(SS), Jan 17, 2023.

  1. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    7,749
    6,550
    0
    Location:
    Redneck Riviera (Gulf South)
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    When I worked for Uncle somebody talked my boss into retiring my stalwart $125 Weller soldering station for a $800 magnetic induction soldering kit.....stating that the results would be much more consistent work, faster heat up times, etc...etc...etc..

    What they did NOT tell her was that the tips were hard to get and expensive as all heck.....but hey.
    Military Industrial Complex, right?
    I mean when dot.gov is writing the checks, who cares about how many zeros there are - riiiight?
    30 years later, I still have that old Weller station, but AFAIK that whizz-bang mag-o-rama station didn't make it past the first two years.
    SO....
    Gas stoves.

    Recently, the Consumer Product Safety Commission said the quiet part out loud.
    They used 'ban' and 'gas ranges' in the same interview.

    Personally?
    I THOUGHT it was a tempest in a teapot - but a recent "story" on government funded radio gave me pause, because it was about as "fair and balanced" as a Tucker Carlson weekend marathon.

    Submitted for your approval, and "discussion:"

    I'm putting it in the adult section so that in the 15 minutes or so before some pucker-butt reads it and kicks it downstairs into the dungeon it might garner one or two more adult sets of eyeballs.

    Disclosure:
    I'm all electric myself but I also live in Hurricane country.
    My plans for post-retirement include a ventless gas heater, a gas HWH booster, and I already have a gas (propane) genset.
    I've used an inductive stove, and they're OK but they're also expensive, fragile, less reliable since they're not quite mainstream. Also, my cookware is nearly all already induction ready, and my (200A) electrical system is upgradable for both electric cars and induction cooking, and I'm already the victim of being saddled with a heat pump that I pray daily will be struck by lightning.
    AND....My CFO detests gas cooktops, so I have no skin in THIS game........yet.

    Understanding the tech behind the gas vs. electric stove debate
    There are long-term benefits to using electric induction stoves, but also upfront costs for consumers and challenges for the grid.

    https://www.marketplace.org/shows/marketplace-tech/understanding-tech-behind-gas-vs-electric-stove-debate/


    A slightly more "fair and balanced" article:
    Pros and Cons of Induction Stoves - Induction Cooktop Advantages
     
    #1 ETC(SS), Jan 17, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2023
  2. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    23,921
    15,548
    0
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    Just so I don't have to guess ... is the Marketplace show that you've linked the same "government funded radio" story you mention in paragraph 4, or was that a different one?
     
  3. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    7,749
    6,550
    0
    Location:
    Redneck Riviera (Gulf South)
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Same one I listened to this morning.

    Meghan McCarty Carino spoke with Ethan Elkind, director of the Climate Program at the University of California, Berkeley, Center for Law, Energy & the Environment.

    Because ANY discussion of the pros and cons of Induction cooking would be incomplete without a subject matter expert..... like a director of the Climate Program at the University of California, Berkeley, Center for Law, Energy & the Environment.
     
  4. Todd Bonzalez

    Todd Bonzalez Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2022
    250
    160
    1
    Location:
    Ireland
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    Base
    The idea that gas stoves could be banned is hilarious. Who'd enforce the ban? The Gas-tapo?

    Anyway...
     
    douglasjre likes this.
  5. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2018
    7,157
    6,707
    1
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    T minus 21 days to our induction range installation.

    Electric upgrade went well. Countertop guy coming in next.

    In my travels I've been put up in short-term apartments, some of which included kitchens. A fraction of those included induction cooktops. So I reckon I've cooked 20-odd dinners on them while on the road recently.

    If those were fair examples of the breed, I'm going to have a lot of fun cooking with this new rig.
     
  6. ColoradoBoo

    ColoradoBoo Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2019
    956
    628
    4
    Location:
    Monument, Colorado USA
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    My gas stove identifies as electric, so that's that! (I can play their stupid games, too!)

    What's extra funny is that almost ALL RV's have gas stoves, for obvious reasons. Are we going to "ban" those, too?

    The stupidity of the extremist-leftists are just jokes writing themselves!!

    I have a copy of the US Constitution...these clowns REALLY need to start reading it! (Especially politicians who swear an oath to protect and defend it yet they often do the opposite.)

    In other news, Wyoming lawmakers are proposing we ban EV's! How fun is this???

    https://www.wane.com/news/wyoming-lawmakers-propose-ban-on-electric-vehicle-sales/#:~:text=(The%20Hill)%20%E2%80%93%20A%20group,safeguard%20oil%20and%20gas%20industries.
     
  7. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    7,749
    6,550
    0
    Location:
    Redneck Riviera (Gulf South)
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Actually, I see (in a far-off dystopian future perhaps) smart house wiring that would kick the car off charging while the stove is inducting, or the heat pump is malfunctioning, etc...

    BEVs will probably be .....a..... "inducted" into a swarm-based distributed energy grid where their individual batteries are both a source and a load, depending on demand fluctuations.
    Of course.....participation in the "community" grid will (at first) be "voluntary" and the effects of the additional charge-discharge cycles will be COMPLETELY disclosed.

    Brave New World?

    (or Terminator?) :whistle:
     
  8. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,068
    11,531
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    How many here are crying about the loss of lead paint, or the dirty emissions from cars?

    There is evidence of of public health issues with the use of gas stoves. Methods to address this risk is being considered. Possible solutions include emission regulations for stoves and better venting requirements. This will be applied to new stoves or construction. Sources just talking about a ban are just looking for something to be outraged about.

    Lead paint wasn't pulled off the shelves, and you weren't required to strip it off or paint over it. If a ban on gas stoves happen, it will only apply to new, and not existing, stoves.

    Oil and gas is used for a lot more than fueling cars. Not sure how much banning EVs would protect them. Are they also going to ban hydro, solar, nuclear, and hydro power?
     
  9. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    23,921
    15,548
    0
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    A bunch of talking heads had a lot of fun with the word 'ban'. My understanding was that even if CPSC had wanted to institute a 'ban', it would have been a lot like the way other such things get handled: after year 2032, or whenever, we don't want new ones going in. I could probably keep mine forever, and for a long time find a replacement at the Re*Store if it breaks. But saying it that way doesn't get the blood pumping quite like "God. Guns. Gas stoves."

    I read the Marketplace show transcript. My takeaway: maybe there are more aspects of "the pros and cons of Induction cooking" than the guest spoke to. On the the other hand, I didn't notice the guest speaking outside of expertise at any point; the aspects that he did speak about were exactly the kinds of things you'd expect a person directing a climate and energy research program to be knowledgeable about.

    The linked Good Housekeeping article bothered me for the first four paragraphs or so with how garbled it got the physics: there's a fine line between "I'm explaining this complicated physics to dummies" and "I'm making this physics complicated like a dummy". But the article does go on to touch on aspects of the experience of cooking on induction, an area that wasn't really in the Marketplace show.

    This article seems about comparable to the Good Housekeeping one, but with a less cringey treatment of the physics:

    Pros and Cons of Induction Cooktops and Ranges - Consumer Reports

    It still says "it generates energy from an electromagnetic field below the glass"—no gang, it ain't generating the energy, your friendly neighborhood power plant did that—but I'll take one minor word-choice quibble over a paragraph of gobbledygook any day.

    Some more specific efficiency numbers can be found here

    2021-2022 Residential Induction Cooking Tops | ENERGY STAR

    ... though compiled, of course, by the people I pay through my taxes to quantitatively evaluate such things, which may be anathema to some.

    I live in a part of the country where natural gas hookups are common, and I kind of like the redundancy of not necessarily losing hot water or cooking ability with an electric outage. I actually haven't used my gas range for a while now; it's a vintage one, and the burner valves had started detectably leaking, and I bought some high-temp gas valve grease to restore them, but wouldn't you know, it has the exact type of valve reported to be impossible to disassemble and restore, so I turned the gas off behind it while deciding what to do next, and that was several years ago.

    Hmm, I wonder if I could get an induction drop-in cooktop and redavinate it into the top of my vintage range. The oven would still be gas, but probably accounts for less usage than the burners anyway.

    The other irksome point for me is that for a good part of my early adulthood I had a motley collection of cheap cookware picked up at various times, mostly aluminum, but some time back around when I switched from renter to homeowner, I celebrated with a whole set of matching Farberware stainless. And now I check on Farberware's web site, and yes, they do sell stainless cookware that works on induction, but at least according to their site, the set I have ... doesn't. Sheesh.

    Also, I enjoy supporting the Re*Store with my appliance purchases, and I haven't started to see induction units showing up there yet.

    Gas stoves that are less vintage than mine often have electronic controls that complicate the "still works in an electric outage" argument. Maybe the top burners can still be used. Oven more likely a lost cause. Had a friend who lost a cake that was in the gas oven when the electric went out. My vintage oven, however, would not miss a beat.
     
    #9 ChapmanF, Jan 17, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2023
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,390
    15,516
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Dang, should I swap out my resistive stove top and oven for gas fired ones to take umbrage? I don't think so.

    This is just more "owning the libs," right-wing nut, Q-anon nonsense. Ban gas lines and large propane tanks to new developments and then update new construction building codes. Over time, the 'problem' is solved.

    Bob Wilson
     
  11. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    55,499
    38,687
    80
    Location:
    Greater Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    Touch screens can be the Achilles heel of stoves, regardless of their propulsion method.
     
    douglasjre, fuzzy1 and John321 like this.
  12. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    7,749
    6,550
    0
    Location:
    Redneck Riviera (Gulf South)
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Ding ding ding!
    Yeah.
    That was sorta my point.

    As far as the CPSC is concerned, they DO have stroke. Seen any buckyballs, bean bags or slip and slides lately?
     
  13. dbstoo

    dbstoo Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    1,326
    703
    0
    Location:
    Near Silicon Valley
    Vehicle:
    2024 Prius Prime
    Model:
    XSE Premium
    I don't think that you have to go to the feds to outlaw gas stoves. All you have to do is to ban installing NG lines to new construction, as has already happened in San Francisco as of two years ago. That way you don't need any expertise or even feasibility studies in order to write the regulations that force the change.

    https://lpdd.org/resources/san-francisco-natural-gas-ban-in-new-construction/

    Excerpt from that web site:
    Unfortunately, it fails to take into account the impact of shifting all that new load to the electric grid. Currently, the power supplied to the SF's grid requires that they burn a lot of gas every day to handle the peak load. It's another case of tackling climate change by shifting the pollution to another area.
     
  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,068
    11,531
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    They went to electric ignition to conserve fuel. I guess you could use a match.
     
    Todd Bonzalez likes this.
  15. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    55,499
    38,687
    80
    Location:
    Greater Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    Our venerable gas fire place (installed when the house was built, around 1980) has a mechanical spark producer. You push down a spring-tensioned button and ptoing, there's a spark. It's electrical, but mechanically generated by the button push I assume?
     
  16. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    108,799
    49,423
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    Piezoelectric?

    we have one on the gas grill, but the gas fireplace is automatic
     
    Mendel Leisk likes this.
  17. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    55,499
    38,687
    80
    Location:
    Greater Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    Piezoelectric sounds like a good back up feature, for any gas appliance, in a power outage. Central heating furnaces included. If it could be done safely.
     
    Trollbait likes this.
  18. BiomedO1

    BiomedO1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2021
    1,454
    790
    0
    Location:
    SacTown, Ca
    Vehicle:
    2021 Prius Prime
    Model:
    LE
    I need to unplug my gas stove to see if it'll work during a power outage.
    I'm pretty sure the oven won't work, since the igniter is a electric heater coil. I've already had to replace it, when the oven stopped working.
    Range has an automatic sparker; but I'm pretty sure if the sensors sees heat - the gas cut-offs won't engage.

    I'd rather know what's going to work in a power outage, than being in an outage and finding out it isn't going to work. If it doesn't work; I'll probably move my camping equipment to a more accessible location. So I don't break my neck in the dark, trying to get to it.

    PS: don't forget to notify your cell carrier; if the signal strength of your phone goes down during an outage. I'm pretty sure the backup systems didn't kick in on my nearest tower. My signal strength went from full bars to 1-2 during my last outage; indicating the closest tower to me died/shut-down. There are suppose to backup / safe guards in place since everyone relies on their cell phone. Land lines never went out during a power outage.
     
    Trollbait likes this.
  19. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,068
    11,531
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    They do wear out, or, at least the ones on gas grills corrode or gum up to the point of no longer reliably working.
     
  20. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    7,749
    6,550
    0
    Location:
    Redneck Riviera (Gulf South)
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
     
    douglasjre likes this.