Internet Poll: Prius vs Jetta

GreenHuman,

The folks here on PriusChat have been very nice to you so far. They have been humoring your questions, trying to reason with you. I think it's a testament to the character of this forum.

But I'm going to be more straightforward with you. I think you and your entire operation at Greenhuman.net are despicable.

You are a shamefully dishonest salesman.

You encourage us to be open-minded, but the coverage of your "Portland to Portland Test Drive" absolutely WREAKS of bias. Almost every single stop was at a VW showroom where dealers showered the Jetta TDI with absurd praises. At no point did you stop to talk to a Toyota representative. I can't find a single instance where anyone was even the slightest bit critical of the TDI. An uninformed viewer would watch your videos and start to think it is has more power than a Corvette, corners better than a Formula One racer, and burns fuel more efficiently than the Prius. If you did give the Prius a compliment it was heavily subdued and carefully feigned to set the stage for a much more enthusiastic comment toward the TDI - an insult to our intelligence if you want to pass this off as being fair.

But your enthusiasm for the Jetta TDI is not what bothers us here. We really don't care what you or others choose to drive. We really don't care how hard you try to sell the Jetta. If that's all you did we would leave you alone. What pisses us off is the snide comments and the blatant misinformation about our Prius.

All you have done is spin numbers about costs - comparing the base model Jetta TDI to the base model Prius, and finding the most expensive Prius and the cheapest Jetta TDI in your area. You've spun numbers about gasoline and diesel - again finding the most expensive gasoline and the cheapest diesel in your area, twisting the numbers a bit, and lying a bit. You asked people questions about the Prius who were completely unqualified to answer them (VW dealers, random folks on the VW lot). You have perpetuated the myths about batteries without doing any fact checking. You have lied about Prius sales. The videos you did showing how long it takes to start a Prius were a complete sham, and are more a testament to either your low IQ or your lack of integrity than anything with the design of the Prius.

When you finally post the results of your test drive, I expect nothing less than more spin and more lies. I don't know what the TDI will have achieved for MPG, but I hope you post the actual cost of the fuel along with it, because (despite your lies) there is no way that the diesel was less expensive. And let me tell you something about the Prius: In 20,000 miles I have averaged 54.5 MPG. On 2,000+ mile road trips (all highway driving) I have averaged in the 50's as well. Everyone on this forum will say the same thing. If your number comes in much lower than that (say, low 40's) then you are only fooling yourselves.

I have said in the past that I might consider a Jetta Sportwagon TDI someday if I needed a second, bigger car. But you have single-handedly made me reconsider. If VW does business with people as shady as you, I don't know if I want to do business with them.

Tim

 

Panic.

That pushed them to do something, quickly before the 2010 became available.

TDI supporters know their in trouble. The T2B5 emission rating is embarrassing, especially knowing that VW has shown off prototypes of diesel vehicles delivering PZEV. So, they divert attention to highway efficiency instead... much like the rest of the non-hybrid industry. The fact that the 2010 Prius also improves that must be quite humbling.

Didn't they know we'd respond this way? Prius count is over 700,000. EPA restrictions kept TDI sales low, to around 15,000 annually. Doing the math really quick, it's easy to see how outnumbered they are already.

MPG data makes the situation even worse. So, they decided to conceal the results.

Non-Hybrid diesel is not the future. Get over it!
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There are some of us that had both TDI and HSD. Like me, for instance. I traded my Jetta (AKA Bora, Jetta in Italian means "Chuck it") TDI 115 HP for a Prius and I'm getting the same running costs despite having diesel 15% cheaper than petrol.
maintenance costs, however, are reduced by 33%, as is insurance costs and road tax. My trade-in was a bargain and I would never consider going back to a TDI ever again.

My Prius now has 88000 miles and still going strong. I know many TDI owners that had to replace an engine at this mileage....

 

wow!... thats nuts!.... the "only" reason I would ever consider diesel is if I was an 18 wheeler pulling 80K lb loads or similar or wanted a touring vehicle that would lasts forever...... the "main" advantage to diesel would be the longevity of miles with the engine..... I've always assumed that was the diesel engines strength?
If thats not the case with the TDI, they really are putting together some piece of ________ and selling it as the superior product on the market!...

If you take that way.... you have nothing but negatives in my book!

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I also see no reason for a manual transmission any more.. I"ve had both... they are great for pulling massive loads and or 4 wheeling on truely treacherous areas, but for normal driving its nothing but a bunch of busy work for me... it ties another arm and another leg.
Although it may be a good workout.... I choose to do that when I'm not driving.
I "may" consider one if it really made a massive difference in mpg.

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Tim, that was quite straightforward! LOL!... I was laughing while I read your post!

I totally realize Greenhuman is asking questions totally directed at trying to compete with and find the cracks and holes in the solid strength of the prius so as to compete with and overpower the market in that area.

I actually have no problem with that.....Thats free enterprise and what made America what it is "or was".
And and really don't think Toyota is intimidated either.
Although such threat could protentially be a problem, Toyota is big enough to take good suggestions and put them to practice and improve and perform better without the "I better squash you" mentality.

I also welcome anyone who is trying to find out needs of the public that Toyota or the prius has not yet met. There remains "allot" that is still yet untapped out there.
But competing with a diesel seems a tad absurd.

We have been screaming for quite a while here "give us plugin, or give us death!"... I know its almost here and has yet materialized on a fleet level that we can't access.

We also need a "serious" battery.... one that can take us a long ways and be a massive bank to store wasted kinetic energy "after having used much of the battery to climb a hill etc".

We have been playing games with the hybrid technology so far crawling at a snails pace.
As awesome as it is, we really aren't beating many Non-hybrid cars and trucks in mpg by much... there is triple room for improvement!!!

I would say the two big easys are
1. Much bigger efficient battery "or equivalant"
2. Plug in abilility....

Toyota has already mastered the guts and bolts of the rest.... those two items will greatly increase the abilities of what we already have.

Toyota had better get this out on the market, or there are plenty others on the cusp of doing just that!

 

Diesels were strong and sturdy when thay had 30 Hp/litre. Now VW makes TDI of 60, 77 and 90 Hp/litre and therefore the engine gets weaker.

Add the problems due to sofisticated injectors that inject minute quintities of diesel directly in the piston at 1600-2000 BAR (40.000 PSI)... when they break in comparison our battery is cheap!!

That is one.

I and not quoting another form another forum that had to change the turbo every 20.000 miles. Three turbos under warranty. I need not say that he's selling his car before the warranty expires.

http://put.edidomus.it/auto/mondoauto/attualita/pdf/QRT0406_DIFETTOMESE.pdf

Here Italian's most famous car magazine calls "Defect of the month" the fact that many TDI "lose their heads" at roughly 60.000 miles. It is dated 2006, but the problem still exists since the issues I reported here are of 2009.

And if I think that if there was no Prius I may have bought a TDI (the only diesel that came automatic in 2005)

 

I have no idea what's going on w/that Fred Meyer in Everett. They seem like a weird aberration to me. If you toss the lowest unleaded prices ($1.99) and that Fred Meyer's apparently low diesel price ($2.05), the next lowest gas price is $2.04 and the next lowest diesel price is $2.17. That's a 13 cent/gallon difference.

Going back to the DOE pages I cited, I downloaded the XLS files for Weekly U.S. No 2 Diesel Retail Sales by All Sellers (Cents per Gallon) and Weekly U.S. Regular All Formulations Retail Gasoline Prices (Cents per Gallon) and averaged the weekly prices from Sept 04 (since the DOE cited that time period) all the way until current, March 23, 2009. Here's what I found:
regular gas:
average: $2.62
median: $2.57
min: $1.61
max: $4.11

diesel:
average: $2.85
median: $2.69
min: $1.87
max: $4.76

(BTW, I lived in the Seattle area for 7.5 years in the past.)

 

I appreciate all the comments and I love that you all are as passionate about your Prius ownership experiences as you are. I had always thought the Prius purchase decision was based on reason, not emotion and it's cool that there is really is an "experiential" element to your ownership experience since as I said I hadn't seen that in anyone I know that owns one.

As I stated earlier, I came over here (thank you again for the invitation Bob) not to change anyone's mind, but to get a better flavor of the Prius owner since yes, we didn't visit any Toyota stores (in fairness, we invited a few to participate but they declined and I can see why from their point of view) so this has been a good alternative. Honest comments I appreciate all and thank you!

 

Wow!... I'm amazed they are still pushing these if they are having so many problems.
Those aren't benign problems that you can just shrug off.. those are as about as serious as you can get.

Now adays, cars are very expensive to work on if its an out of warranty issue.
Although the prius was a little scary too when I first bought one, but its reputation and strong fervor by so many that proclaim the name Toyota is all the warranty they need, I was convinced to take a chance.

I did buy an extended warranty 7yr/100000K on both of my 06 prius's.
I haven't used either one yet and I'm running about 85K miles on both of them.

When the Jetta can earn a track record of such and draw such a passionate crowd of 45 thousand people in just one forum as the prius has, it may be easier to take a chance with such a car.

Like I said before.... if they want to nudge into this market and steal it, they had better come out with something earth shattering that makes headlines all over the country.... until now, I've never even heard of the Jetta diesel.

 

Yes, we should not confuse truck diesel engines that are intended to log hundreds of thousands of miles, with automobile diesel engines that may be loosely based upon a gasoline engine design and have marginal reliability.

Since diesel is a popular engine choice in Europe, it's very nice to have active European members here to shed light on current VW TDI problems!

I like to refer to ConsumerReports when assessing vehicle reliability. Unfortunately there aren't enough old Jetta diesels around in the US for that magazine to report reliability for those vehicles.

The five-cylinder Jetta, Eos, and Rabbit show average or better than average reliability; however the other VW models are showing worse than average, or much worse than average reliability.

 

Green Human,
You didn't confuse anyone with any facts.
You made a big deal of the push button start, like it was some insurmountable obstacle to driving a Prius, you favoured highways to city driving in your comparison, yep you might do most of your miles on highways but most people do most of their miles in urban areas with traffic lights and stop signs every 100 to 400 yards so a highway comparison isn't realistic.

Why did I vote Prius?
1/ Counter the obvious bias of your report
2/ Diesel in its cleanest is no where near as clean as Prius but you pushed the "clean diesel" message.
3/ I enjoy a quiet ride
4/ I don't like the risks associated with turbo ownership
5/ I like the boring aspect of Toyota, I know at the start of the trip I will get where I'm going.
6/ Petrol is cheaper than diesel

I voted in part according to the information you provided in your website and video blogs, I have driven diesel VWs in the past but not Jetta, as a mechanic I had the displeasure of repairing VW diesels too. I got out of the mechanic-ing business and I own Toyotas because I'm sick of fixing cars.

 

Play around withe the UK reliability report: Reliability Index :: how reliable is your car?

The Jetta used to be called Bora.

 

<sigh>

Another "trash the TDI" thread, much like the "trash the Prius" threads on tdiclub. It's really just so exhausting.

A few facts from my personal experience with both cars.

- I have 190k on my 2003 Jetta TDI. I've replaced an alternator and the shocks/struts, along with 2 timing belts. The alternator's questionable, but other than that, I've had no "unplanned" work. Turbo and clutch still great, and the car's putting out more power than stock. Changing the clutch soon, mostly so I can add more power.

- I have a lifetime average of 45.3 MPG on the Jetta. We're getting about 44 on the Prius since October. Mostly winter, admitted, so I'm hoping it goes up. Right now the Jetta does better in the winter than the summer, due to the 17s I run in the summer.

- The Jetta was $20k new. The Prius was $25k used, but it's more loaded, and 5 years later. Yep, I know the new ones cost more...but there are also more options available (I hate not having a sunroof and heated seats in the Prius...just hate it).

- The Prius has much more rear leg room than the Gen IV Jetta.

- Yes, I understand the comparisions being argued in this thread are targetted at the 09+ Jettas. OTOH, blanket statements that suggest Turbos are going at 20-30k and engines are going systematically at any milage on any gen are simply not true.

- There are a lot more quirks on the TDI. Correct oil is a must. You have to have to have to pay attention to the service schedule. I'll go out on a limb and say the Prius will be more forgiving to maintenance indiscretions.

- The last year has been an anomaly regarding prices. You'll see diesel dip under RUG this summer, and go back over next winter, as it always had before last summer. Overall fuel cost per gallon is comparable.

- Gen IV TDIs had automatics that died by 150k. The DSGs in the new ones are much better (and a lot more fun than the HSD...sorry, that's more opinion than fact...next section).

Some opinions:
- Because I've modded it, the Jetta's much more responsive...but it's also putting down similar numbers to the 09s now...the new ones will flat out out-perform the current Prius. I've also always preferred the diesel on the highway, personally. Prius is just too loud upon acceleration over 60 MPH.

- I think it sucks that you can't really push the performance of the Prius, and it's terribly expensive to even upgrade your handling. My heavily modded TDI still gets great milage.

- I feel like you have to be an enthusiast to love the TDI. I can see how any driver could like the Prius.

- I feel as if the Jetta is, and always has been, more fun to drive. Again, preference.

- If I have to replace my Jetta (which I'm not planning on until at least 300k...deer willing) it'll be with another diesel.

Bottom line: Prius isn't for everyone. Neither is a TDI. We have both, and use them interchangably depending on what we're doing. I wouldn't want the Prius as a primary vehicle, and my wife wouldn't want the TDI as a primary. They're both very good vehicles, in their own ways.

I'd love to know how many people posting negative "opinions" about the TDI have actually driven one...or better yet owned one.

 

Is that why they rushed to use the older model Prius rather than waiting for the 2010, which is clearly offers a refined driving experience?

Comparing to a vehicle no longer available (by the time we finally get to see MPG data) doesn't make any sense. Of course, not also having a city-only drive to balance their highway-only drive doesn't either.
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Its common sense... I really don't think the TDI would be trashed if you guys didn't come into our living room and start picking apart our furniture.

Let the TDI stand on its on credits without putting down the prius and you may get a little farther.

Yes, there is emotional attachment to something we like and trust, so attacking it becomes personal.

If you want to play fair, then play fair, otherwise don't get upset when you find you are losing the sparring match.

I think everyone out here is pretty fair and welcomes visitors of another faith "if you will" as long as you respect where you are at, you won't catch flak.

Its pretty hard for us to accept something we have never driven when we love what we have and its even harder when those that have driven them either also vote negative against them or the TDI supporters haven't "like you say" even driven the prius either.

I have heard that both give a good driving experience and also that both excel in different ways or uses of driving....

Replacing timing belts?.. Alternators?..... things we don't have to worry about.

I need to hear how wonderful the Jetta is and I will compare in my own mind... I don't need someone else planting thoughts in my head.

So far, I can't see any reason to go out of my way to even try it?.... Can you?

Until that happens, you will only be buried in facts that discount sound reasoning for defending the TDI.

I think all anyone is asking is to be honest and factual and your bias is ok... we all have ours, but don't try to be decietful or spin the facts to show something thats not so, or make the prius appear subject to the TDI....

I keep waiting for the mind blower... but so far, all I hear is a failing argument......

not sure what your trying to prove....

The TDI is what it is and you will get no argument for that.. but when you start comparing it to the prius, thats when you lose the argument.

My point is.. no one is out here trying to bash the TDI and no one would have ever gone out of their way to speak or vote against it in any way until they started trying to project a public image that it was better than the prius.....

Thats kind a like stealing...... Toyota has earned alot of respect through the prius..... don't try to steal it.. go earn your own.

 

I bought Prius based on many reasons. The emotion that followed is called satisfaction. Over 90% of the Prius owners share that with me as found by Consumer Reports and JD Power in North America as well as in UK over and over again.

Prius consists of thousands of patents and it won so many awards:

• 1997–98 Car of the Year Japan
• Motor Trend Car of the Year, 2004
• Car and Driver magazine's Ten Best list for 2004.
• North American Car of the Year award for 2004. Nominated in 2001.
• International Engine of the Year for 2004.
• "Best Engineered Vehicle for 2004" by SAE's Automotive Engineering International magazine.
• 2005 European Car of the Year (406 points, ahead of Citroën C4 with 267 points and Ford Focus II with 228).
• "Best Fuel Economy" and "1.4-litre to 1.8-litre Engine of the Year 2005" from International Engine of the Year Awards.
• 2006 EnerGuide Award (Midsize)
• 2006 Intellichoice Best Overall Value of the Year, Midsize
• "Best Fuel Economy" and "1.4-litre to 1.8-litre Engine" of the Year 2006 from International Engine of the Year Awards.
• 2007 Intellichoice Best in Class Winner :Best Retained Value, Lowest Fuel, Lowest Operating Costs, Lowest Ownership Costs
• "Best Fuel Economy Engine of the Year 2007" from International Engine of the Year Awards.
• Swiss government named Toyota Prius the world's greenest car in a draft study of over 6,000 cars.
• Green Engine of the Year 2008 from International Engine of the Year Awards.
• 2008 JD Power and Associates Most Dependable Compact Car

 

Does your neighbor have the 2009 TDI? If not, the comparison is useless. Your own words: "Comparing to a vehicle no longer available ... doesn't make any sense."

A bit on replacing TDI engines at 88k miles. Sure, that happens. Dealers botch maintenance (admittedly, all too frequently with VW of America), there can be casting faults in the metal, some parts break, etc. The same can be said about having to replace Civic engines or Camry engines before 100k miles. All are rare occurrences, but they all happen.

windstrings, this has no relevance to one car being better than the other, but tdiclub has about 70000 members, and vwvortex is the largest car-related forum on the internet

 

boy, this thread has come a long way. i've actually sat here and read the whole thread and a few things pop into my head so i may as well pull that trigger. there has been alot of numbers slung around about gas/fuel prices. i personally am not going to drive 10-20 miles out of my way to save a few pennies. yes times are hard and everyone is trying to economize (even me) which is one of the reasons that i purchased a prius. now instead of filling up my 05 scion tc every 2 weeks, i fill up the prius every 1 1/2 months and thats more logic than emotion in my book.

Living in my area of california means that fuel pumps are farther spread out than gas pumps. in my opinion that logic dictates to me that it would be less convenient for me to own a diesel and not to sound self obsorbed or anything, but my conveniance is important to me. if your thinking that statement in itself is emotional, well it very well may be, but the fact remains that my convenience and that of my family dictate any purchases made by us.


my freeway drive consists of about 3 miles of my day, everything else is city streets. that logic dictates to me (this is only in my head now) that "i" would get worse milage from a diesel as opossed to a hybrid. i have nothing against vw, turbo, or diesel. my father was a diesel mechanic and i worked along with him for many years sevicing and rebuilding tractor trailers. there are benefits to diesel but unfortunatlly they do not fit my lifestyle.

many factors played into my purchase of the prius and i don't feel that any of them had to do with emotions or passion for the car. a little bit of necesity, some logic and common sence where factors in my purchase. a blown acl and holes through the cartilage of my left knee forced me out of my 05 tc because it was a manual.

a friend was moving out of state and i was able to pick up her 06 prius with hov stickers for the lease buyout of 13k, which just happens to be the amount that my trade-in was worth. the timing of it all was luck on my part because gas was threatening to go up to $5gal and most if not all prius' where selling for an outragious amount at the time. i could have sold it, paid it off and purchased another car that was more luxurious, but i still made out as far as i'm concerned. when i do get into the carpool lane, i feel a little guilty, but that goes away when i arrive at my destination without the traffic grump factor.

enough of my blah blah, after driving our prius around i think that i did make the logical choice and emotionally i feel good about it.

mitch

edit: please forgive the spelling and punctuation mistakes.

 

True, the newest model may indeed be quieter than her 2006. Even so, it's still not as quiet as an engine that isn't running.

Remember, the point is to improve beyond the status quo.
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