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Investigating Autopilot

Discussion in 'Tesla' started by bwilson4web, Jun 18, 2021.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    We agree that an independent, open analysis is needed. That is what the NHTSA might provide. However, I remember the 'Bell the Hybrid' studies that were (are!) seriously flawed. The larger "A" pillars were not investigated as a hypothesis for accident rate effect.

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. John321

    John321 Senior Member

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    I agree on a universal standard. Currently KIA uses a warning alarm and the system that is malfunctioning flashes red on the drivers Instrument Cluster - so a visual and audible alarm.

    I find the Rear Cross Traffic and Blind Spot Monitors to help me the most. Our vehicle is a 2019 and KIA doesn't let you take your hands off the wheel, if you do the car sounds an alarm and will begin to slow down - the detection interval seems to be about 10 seconds with no hands on the wheel.

    The vehicle also has an alarm for a reckless driver approaching at high speed and warns you about it ( approaching from the rear or side)- this alarm took some getting used to.
     
  3. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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  4. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Compared to other automakers, Tesla has over ¾ million Individual Car's data. How many cars do other manufacturers have, that are running different forms of driver-assist? The NTSA has to Calc rates per 100,000 if there's to be any meaningful interpretation.
    .
     
  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    They've started doing that.
     
  6. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    How many other car companies even HAVE 100,000 vehicles w/ serious driver assist?
    .
     
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Caution about a ‘story’ about a report that has not been released. Once the NHTSA releases and we can read and analyze it, we’ll have something worth discussing.

    BTW, the ‘Bell The Hybrid’ reports of 2009 showed even the NHTSA can make fundamental statistical errors. Those Congressional mandated noise makers gives cover for wider A-pillars killing pedestrians.

    Bob Wilson
     
  8. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    For the math impaired, that AP article points to crashes per just 1,000 vehicles. All the big car companies appear to have that many. ;)

    ============

    Since Trollbait's AP news link back at #23, the AP appears to have received crash figures from more car companies:
    US report: nearly 400 crashes of automated tech vehicles | AP News
     
    Trollbait likes this.
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    You have to define serious.

    Subaru introduced Eyesight with the 2013MY. IIRC, that's the same year the Model S came out. Subaru sold over 424k cars that year in the US, getting to 700k before dropping for the pandemic years. Eyesight wasn't standard then, but it is now on cars with a CVT or automatic. I think it's a good bet they have over 100k vehicles on the road with 'serious' driver assist.

    Volvo started introducing automatic braking back around 2009.

    In the above article, Honda reports 90 crashes, and states they have 6 million cars on US roads with advanced driver assist systems.

    What I want to know is how many crashes have been reported for Open Pilot?

    PS: Subaru reported 10 crashes within the time frame.
     
  10. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    One has to wonder how pathetically small is a 'per-1,000' accident sample is considering there are 17,000 accidents on average per day in the United States.
    How Many Car Accidents Are There in the USA per Day?.
    .
     
  11. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    A comparison of accidents per vehicle mile traveled per model year per car maker and including so-called self-driving and person driven categories would be illuminating. Cheap headlines with Tesla in them just don't help me.
     
  12. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Isn't the open pilot kit strictly DIY? Seems that subset of drivers would naturally be more in tune to using driver assist.
    .
     
  13. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    First off, "accident" is a euphemism, to avoid the reality that the overwhelming majority of vehicle crashes are caused by human misconduct or negligence. Many entities have retired that word, now calling them crashes or collisions.

    For the math impaired again, "per-1,000" or "per-100,000" doesn't mean they look at just a sample of 1,000 or 100,000 vehicles. They are looking at the entire population, then expressing the rate on a comparable basis.

    ==================
    Separately, I hope readers also see this paragraph: "[2019] An additional 2.74 million people suffered injuries that same year, according to ... NHTSA ... There are 7,507 people injured in the United States in car accidents every day." I leave out the article's listed death toll because it has risen sharply since that year, and NHTSA's count excludes a lot of MV-associated deaths that I prefer to include. CDC has better numbers for MV deaths.
     
    #33 fuzzy1, Jun 15, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2022
  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The NHTSA didn't just request reports from automakers, but also tech companies working in the advanced driver assistant systems field. Don't know if the request went out to the Open Pilot company, but the article says it was a hundred companies.
     
  15. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Source: Initial Data Release, Advanced Vehicle Technologies | NHTSA

    June 15, 2022 | Washington, DC

    Today, as part of the U.S. Department of Transportation’s efforts to increase roadway safety and encourage innovation, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration published the initial round of data it has collected through its Standing General Order issued last year and initial accompanying reports summarizing this data.

    The SAE Level 2 advanced driver assistance systems summary report is available here, while the SAE Levels 3-5 automated driving systems summary report is available here. Going forward, NHTSA will release data updates monthly.

    These data reflect a set of crashes that automakers and operators reported to NHTSA from the time the Standing General Order was issued last June. While not comprehensive, the data are important and provide NHTSA with immediate information about crashes that occur with vehicles that have various levels of automated systems deployed at least 30 seconds before the crash occurred.

    “The data released today are part of our commitment to transparency, accountability and public safety,” said Dr. Steven Cliff, NHTSA’s Administrator. “New vehicle technologies have the potential to help prevent crashes, reduce crash severity and save lives, and the Department is interested in fostering technologies that are proven to do so; collecting this data is an important step in that effort. As we gather more data, NHTSA will be able to better identify any emerging risks or trends and learn more about how these technologies are performing in the real world.”

    This new data is the first of its kind, and the reports detail several important caveats and limitations to this dataset for researchers, the press and the public to consider. For a clear understanding of the data, users should read about the data limitations and the sources that manufacturers and operators used to collect and report crashes.

    For example, some reporting entities provide the agency with robust data more quickly because their vehicles are equipped with telematics capabilities. Telematics is the most frequently cited source for data collected currently by the Standing General Order. Manufacturers and operators also rely on consumer complaints to begin collecting data, which are the second-largest source for L2 ADAS, and field reports, the second-largest source for ADS. Further, these data are not normalized by the number of vehicles a manufacturer or developer has deployed or by vehicle miles traveled. That information is held by manufacturers and not currently reported to NHTSA. Thus, these data cannot be used to compare the safety of manufacturers against one another.

    Some initial observations from the data show that since reporting requirements began, one crash reported for an ADS-equipped vehicle resulted in serious injuries, and 108 of the crashes resulted in no injuries. Of the 130 reported crashes for ADS-equipped vehicles, 108 involved collisions with another vehicle, and 11 involved a vulnerable road user, such as a pedestrian or cyclist.

    For vehicles with SAE L2 ADAS, the data show that alleged serious injuries or a fatality occurred in 11 of the 98 crashes where information on injuries was reported. Of the reported crashes for SAE L2 ADAS, at least 116 of the collisions were with another vehicle, and at least four involved a vulnerable road user.

    The SGO, issued in June 2021, requires for the first time that manufacturers and operators of vehicles equipped with SAE L2 ADAS or SAE Levels 3-5 ADS report to NHTSA certain crashes when the systems are engaged. The SGO is a first step toward helping the Department take a more data-driven approach to ensuring that AV technology is deployed safely and will help inform future actions, including those to educate consumers and build confidence in advanced vehicle technologies.

    This effort comes at an important time as L2 ADAS are increasingly common features on many new vehicles and provide driver assistance functions that also combine technologies, like lane centering assistance and adaptive cruise control. Drivers, though, must remain engaged and alert at all times when using these systems, as they are not designed to and are not able to perform critical operating components of the driving task. These vehicles include driving support features, not automated driving features.

    ADS-equipped vehicles, which are able to perform the complete driving task in limited circumstances, are not currently sold to consumers. They are in limited use on public roads around the country for testing various mobility types, including ride hailing, shuttle services, and delivering goods. Interest in more widespread deployment has continued to grow.

    The Department and NHTSA seek to foster innovation and safe adoption of these technologies, which, if done right, hold great promise to improve roadway safety. NHTSA is collecting this data on advanced vehicle technologies and exploring other opportunities to support safe innovation as part of NHTSA’s core responsibility to ensure vehicle safety.

    Contact:

    NHTSA
    NHTSA Media[email protected]202-366-9550
    First I'll read the original NHTSA reports and then share my impressions.

    Bob Wilson
     
  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Shared with Autoline.TV:

    About AutoPilot, Autoline should retract “More Dangerous” because NHTSA DOT HS 813 325, June 2022 clearly states “. . . the Summary Incident Report Data should not be assumed to be statistically representative of all crashes.” This is because some manufacturers do not automate and include telemetry of crash data. Many inferior systems may fail to report a crash.

    In the report, “. . . it is feasible that some Level 2 ADAS-equipped vehicle crashes are not included in the Summary Incident Report Data because the reporting entity was not aware of them.” In engineering (and quality reporting,) garbage in means garbage out.

    The web link is to DOT HS 813 325, NHTSA, June 2022.

    Bob Wilson
     
  17. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    WaPo: 17 fatalities, 736 crashes: The shocking toll of Tesla’s Autopilot
    Tesla’s driver-assistance system, known as Autopilot, has been involved in far more crashes than previously reported


    "SAN FRANCISCO — The school bus was displaying its stop sign and flashing red warning lights, a police report said, when Tillman Mitchell, 17, stepped off one afternoon in March. Then a Tesla Model Y approached on North Carolina Highway 561.

    The car — allegedly in Autopilot mode — never slowed down. ..."


    "The number of deaths and serious injuries associated with Autopilot also has grown significantly, the data shows. When authorities first released a partial accounting of accidents involving Autopilot in June 2022, they counted only three deaths definitively linked to the technology. The most recent data includes at least 17 fatal incidents, 11 of them since last May, and five serious injuries."

    "Tesla’s 17 fatal crashes reveal distinct patterns, The Post found: Four involved a motorcycle. Another involved an emergency vehicle. Meanwhile, some of Musk’s decisions — such as widely expanding the availability of the features and stripping the vehicles of radar sensors — appear to have contributed to the reported uptick in incidents, according to experts who spoke with The Post."

    "Since the reporting requirements were introduced, the vast majority of the 807 automation-related crashes have involved Tesla, the data show. Tesla — which has experimented more aggressively with automation than other automakers — also is linked to almost all of the deaths."

    "The uptick in crashes coincides with Tesla’s aggressive rollout of Full Self-Driving, which has expanded from around 12,000 users to nearly 400,000 in a little more than a year. Nearly two-thirds of all driver-assistance crashes that Tesla has reported to NHTSA occurred in the past year."

    "While Tesla constantly tweaked its driver-assistance software, it also took the unprecedented step of eliminating its radar sensors from new cars and disabling them from vehicles already on the road — depriving them of a critical sensor as Musk pushed a simpler hardware set amid the global computer chip shortage. ... It has recently taken steps to reintroduce radar sensors, according to government filings first reported by Electrek."

    "In a March presentation, Tesla claimed Full Self-Driving crashes at a rate at least five times lower than vehicles in normal driving, in a comparison of miles driven per collision. That claim, and Musk’s characterization of Autopilot as “unequivocally safer,” is impossible to test without access to the detailed data that Tesla possesses.

    Autopilot, largely a highway system, operates in a less complex environment than the range of situations experienced by a typical road user."



    The headline and some of the article's tone may be a bit excessive. And I'm still very reluctant to make comparisons between Tesla and other makers, and also between AP/FSD and regular humans, due to various potentially large selection biases. But the recent sharp increase in Tesla's driver-assistance crash and fatality figures seems concerning.
     
  18. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    The article seems to leave out basic information. I don’t know if this is because they don’t have it or chose not to share it.
    The question I have is, what is the number of vehicles equipped with the level of automation being tracked, for each manufacturer?
    If Tesla has 90% of the vehicles in the sample size, I would expect them to have 90% of the reported accidents.

    As others have said, at this point, any accident is because the driver didn’t avoid it. The system still warns drivers to be aware and responsive.

    I would like to see more, and better data from all parties.
     
  19. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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  20. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    March 26, 2019, I bought our 2019 Tesla Std Rng Plus paying extra for blue paint and Autopilot. There were some rough edges but even this Autopilot, an early version, paid for itself two months later. October 2019, I bought Full Self Driving (FSD) and waited for the first releases. Four years later, the car has 109,701 miles and +95% of those miles have been on Autopilot/FSD.

    Monday June 19, I'll drive +700 miles to Auburn Hills MI. Over 99% of those miles will be on Autopilot/FSD. A previous 30 hour, 1,300 mi showed that the dogs and I will arrive safely and feeling frisky. The motel has free L2 charging with free breakfast but the dogs will be staying in my "Kar Kennel." The next day, I'll attend a Munro Associates Open House and spend another night at the motel before heading home.

    With no scheduled events, I'll look at my options: (1) visit a brother in Connecticut; (2) New Jersey casinos; (3) check Mom and Dad's grave in Arlington, and/or; (4) tour the Outer Banks. The dogs and I will stay in hotel Tesla with its pet friendly "Kar Kennel."

    Bob Wilson