Iraqies Revolt Against Al Qaeda - Ask for Help!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Army5339 @ Jun 3 2007, 04:11 PM) [snapback]454520[/snapback]</div>

15 years of reserve duty. TIG = 10 years.

Yes, I had issues with getting deployed to a hostile fire zone in Iraq in April, 2003.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rudiger @ Jun 3 2007, 05:32 PM) [snapback]454564[/snapback]</div>

What I see is someone who was doing the reserves, with the idea that you don't deploy, and don't do "real" Army stuff. As soon as it became the real Army, you quit. You gambled wrong.

What the hell were you thinking when you joined? That you weren't in the military?

Your whole position makes sense now. You essentially signed up for a voluntary draft, that nobody else had to do, and then you complain when you got drafted.

No, really. Why did you join?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Army5339 @ Jun 3 2007, 05:57 PM) [snapback]454576[/snapback]</div>

I agree with you 100 percent. When you raise your right hand and say that you will protect and defend this country you should mean it. People join the military for many reasons, the GI bill, extra cash in the reserves, to get out their small town, don't want to go to college... but the bottom line is this. YOU JOINED THE MILITARY not band camp. You learn to defend yourself and KILL people. They tear you down to build you back up to be a solider for this country. That is YOUR JOB, Reserves or AD. Stop whining that you have to go to war, IT IS YOUR JOB. Nobody put a gun up to your head to MAKE you join, you did it all on your own.
My husband is a Marine. He has been for almost 16 years now. He is going BACK to Iraq in two months. Neither of us are whining about it. We are proud to do this for our Country. It is his job... it is his life... it is our life... and we are doing this for our Country, it's people, our children.
The left wing can talk about whatever they want over their cup of Starbucks while watching CNN. The fact of the matter is we are fighting terrorist. We need to finish the job. I know it is hard to understand when you are not seeing it of living it... but there are people this very second planning and waiting to attack us. You should have never have joined if you weren't willing to pick up arms and fight for this Country...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Army5339 @ Jun 3 2007, 05:57 PM) [snapback]454576[/snapback]</div>

The last time I heard the smirking "What the hell were you thinking when you joined?" remark was actually in Iraq from some E-8 who was so incompetent they never put him in charge of anything. He was most well-known for tearing the rear folding door off of a bus when he drove too close to some concrete T-barrier.

A better question might be why didn't you join the reserves instead of ROTC once you had ETS'd out of the Navy. Could it be because you stand a better chance of not getting called up that way? If you really wanted to go back to Iraq and serve as you claim, the reserves would have been a much quicker way to go about it than playing around with ROTC. You'd likely make 2LT a lot quicker, as well.

No one joins the reserves with the idea that they'll be on the frontline, certainly not at the beginning of a major conflict. Well, they didn't in the past, anyway. Maybe that's why recruitment and retention in the reserves is now abysmal. No one getting out of the military goes into the reserves now and anyone looking for tuition money just goes active (or ROTC). Why would they join the reserves? They'd get sent right to Iraq, with a lot less of the benefits than active-duty folks get. That info doesn't get quite as much media attention as the active-duty or Guard's numbers, though.

Traditionally, the majority of the reserves is comprised of older, active-duty guys looking to ride out their service to get to their retirement, or younger people taking advantage of the college tuition funding. Either way, no one really thinks they're going to be put on the frontline of a major conflict. At worst, they figure they'll get called to backfill while someone who actually knows what they're doing gets sent. But that's changed dramatically, with corresponding consequences (Abu Ghraib was staffed with Guardsmen and reservists).

So, yeah, I'm a whining reservist puke that got called up and sent to Iraq. But, from what I can gather, my active-duty time in Iraq was no less valid than anyone else's. Sure seems like just as many reservists and Guardsmen are doing stuff every bit as dangerous and getting killed as active-duty guys (Navy or otherwise).

Well, maybe a few less reservists now since that pool is rapidly shrinking. Could even be the reason they're resorting to using Navy EOD guys on repeated tours...

 

Give BigMahma a break; at least he is honest about some of his fears regarding enlistment:

His aging trophy-wife will dump him if she cannot live in a MacMansion, but not before she jumps in the sack with a couple of her new neighbors.

A brilliant example of what neo-cons are made of.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rudiger @ Jun 3 2007, 06:46 PM) [snapback]454606[/snapback]</div>

Actually, the only way for me to become an officer was to get my college degree. There is no other way to become a 2LT. The quickest way is to get my degree was to go full time.

I am volunteering for active duty infantry. That means Ranger school. That means airborne. That means combat.

It sounds as if you are ignorant about how the military commissions officers. No amount of field time or deployments makes up for the college degree. I didn't have one. I needed one to proceed. The military sent me to school.

I agonized over staying enlisted, or becoming an officer. I had some really good officers who showed me what it meant to lead others. I think that the people who serve deserve the best leadership they can get, and I want to give them my best. I talked it over with my senior enlisted and officer leadership, and they thought it was a good move. I then talked it over with my friends that I served with, and they thought it was a good idea too. Some of them are getting ready to commission as well, only as Naval officers, through other ROTC programs. I didn't join the military for college money. I joined because I wanted to serve.

When I commission, I am going to Iraq. There is no getting around it, it is a for sure thing. Do I want to go? Would I go there on vacation? Of course not. But it is my duty to go and lead men to the best of my ability, and I will do that as many times as necessary.

Again, I am sorry you were ignorant of the fact that you would have to fight for your country when you joined the military. I am not really sure how to address that problem in the future. I think the current manning problems in the reserves are mostly because we artificially inflated the reserve's numbers with people such as yourself, who really weren't serious when they took the oath. You were there for the benefits, but not really to do anything. Why you have such a disdain for active duty military personnel I will never know, but it is glaringly obvious, and I am guessing caused you some degree of conflict during your active duty period.

 

Requiring college to be an officer is so different from my 10 year experience as infantry in the Israeli army, that I googled a bit (my bolding):

"ROTC programs train students in about 575 Army, 130 Navy and Marine Corps, and 300 Air Force units at participating colleges and universities. Trainees take 3 to 5 hours of military instruction a week, in addition to regular college courses. After graduation, they may serve as officers on active duty for a stipulated period."

One can only hope, for the soldier's welfare, that these "leaders" stay way in the back.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Army5339 @ Jun 3 2007, 08:27 PM) [snapback]454644[/snapback]</div>

Bullshit. There are three ways to become an officer in the military: OCS, West Point (Annapolis for the Navy), or ROTC. You took the easy way out. By the end of your four years in college, Iraq could conceivably be over. They're so hard up for junior-grade officers and NCOs in the Army now, they'd have bent over and kissed your nice person to get you whatever you wanted, guaranteed, and you and I both know it.

Bullshit, again. If you really wanted to become an officer and done all that stuff, you'd have volunteered for active-service in the regular Army. But you signed up for ROTC. In fact, if you want Ranger and airborne training, what the hell are you doing behind a computer all afternoon? Your nice person should be out running. Believe me, you're going to be doing a lot of that if you actually make it to Ranger or airborne school.

Funny you should mention Ranger school. The couple of former Rangers I know seem to think Iraq is a collossal f**k-up, too.

You'd have gotten your commission at OCS while on active-duty a lot quicker (and gotten to fight in Iraq like you claim to want, to boot).

My nice person.

When you commission, there's a good chance Iraq will be over.

Don't feel sorry for me. I have a clear conscious about my military service. To me, you're worse because I made no allusions as to not wanting to go to the front line in any half-nice person conflict like Iraq. You, OTOH, claim to want to fight, yet side-step into ROTC, meaning the fighting could be over when it comes your turn. If you really wanted to fight as badly as you claim, you'd be over there with ZenCruiser's nephew right now. You're more of a hypocrite than I.

And speaking of clear conscious, what in the hell are all you righteous flag-wavers doing driving a car made in Japan? Shouldn't you be supporting the economy of your country by driving some high-quality, high-resale vehicle made in America like a Fucus, Caliper, or Hummer?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rudiger @ Jun 3 2007, 08:55 PM) [snapback]454655[/snapback]</div>

OCS requires you to have a college degree, whether or not you want to believe it. I am too old to go to the academy. Either OCS or ROTC would require me to have a Bachelors. Don't have the degree, it doesn't matter how cool you are, you can't commission. Same time frame for either one. ROTC gives me a better shot at getting an infantry officer slot, which are fiercely competed for, because ROTC is given priority over OCS.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rudiger @ Jun 3 2007, 08:55 PM) [snapback]454655[/snapback]</div>

Again, you are ignorant of the fact that I needed to get a degree in order to commission. Active duty does not equal a bachelors degree. Do you honestly believe that Iraq will be over within the next couple of years? I don't think that anyone here believes that the war in the Middle East will be over in four years. You are much more optimistic about the current administration's plans than I ever could be.

Becoming an officer requires a college degree. The Academy, ROTC, and OCS all require a BS or a BA. Call bullshit all you want, doesn't make it any less true.

Funny how at once you can hate active duty military, all military officers, and disparage people who choose to serve in the military and drive a Prius. It must have pained you to even associate with the reserves, hiding your true hatred.

 

Army5339,

What is a practical minimum for a 'college degree' ?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Jun 3 2007, 09:29 PM) [snapback]454675[/snapback]</div>

A Bachelors degree from an accredited college.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Jun 3 2007, 08:50 PM) [snapback]454653[/snapback]</div>

That is what is required to get the commission. It takes much more training before you are in charge of anybody. Even then, you are in charge of relatively small amounts of people. The vast majority of officers in the military come from ROTC. All officers, either OCS, ROTC, or the Academy, basically start after commissioning with the same skill level. For example, infantry officers have a basic infantry officers school they attend for a several months, along with several other schools.

One of my friends that I am in school with is joining the IDF after he graduates. He is a good guy, and sharp.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Army5339 @ Jun 3 2007, 09:10 PM) [snapback]454669[/snapback]</div>

So you're saying that anyone that goes active-duty without a degree, has no hope of getting a commission so long as they remain in an active-duty status? The military provides no provision for getting a college degree (or its equivalent) while on active status? Am I correct on this one? You had to leave the service to get a degree in order to rejoin later (out of ROTC) as an officer?

See, being a dumb Army reservist with only 15 years TIS and 10 TIG as an E5, then being pissed when he got stop-lossed, cross-leveled, and involuntarily extended to a unit halfway across the country to go to Iraq for a year, I'm not as knowledgeable in a lot of this stuff as you high-speed, ex-active duty Navy guys.

Most people in the military don't drive a Prius. Usually, they can't afford to buy one. But then, those sign-up bonuses are pretty big these days so I guess if they chose to do so, some could get one. Most times, they pick up something substantially more macho. A Prius isn't really in keeping with the bravado American spirit most Bush supporters seem to love.

Today's patriotic military volunteers (and their supporters) are Bush's enablers. Without them, there'd be a draft or we'd be out of Iraq. Either way, we'd be out of Iraq soon enough.

But I've softened my position enough on disliking today's military to concede that the current US economic situation forces many of those same volunteers to enlist simply to take care of their loved ones. A strongly suspect that ZenCruiser's nephew falls into that category. Maybe if more of the military bonus money was spent on improving the economy for lower-income families, that situation wouldn't exist, either.

You know, there's still time to go active-duty (or even the reserves) and relieve yourself of any guilt you might have about dodging it. That way, you'll get a little more of a taste of the Army in the next four years other than the 3-5 hours per week you're evidently currently getting. You'll probably have to go through Army basic training, though. When I went through it, previously going through Navy basic training wouldn't cut it.

Hell, I'll even write you a recommendation.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rudiger @ Jun 3 2007, 09:50 PM) [snapback]454689[/snapback]</div>

Actually, I am technically still in. I ETS'd out of the Navy, and became a contracted Army cadet. I belong to the Army. I have no other option than joining the military. If I drop out of school, I am automatically enlisted into the Army. However I wanted to get my degree in timely fashion to commission before I was too old, I would have to go to classes full time. The only way to get a degree within 3-4 years is to go to school full time, and not be on active duty, you are correct. The Army wants me to be an officer, not a NCO.

Incidentally, you are not baiting me me into some anti-American, anti-US military diatribe. I did my active duty time, and ::gasp:: knew it meant I might have to work and go to war. I am choosing to go back to that, no matter how much that angers you. Everyone gets it: you are disgusted at the military and how they enable whatever it is that you hate. You are extremely angry for getting duped into wasting the better part of your life. Yes, yes. We get it.

At least you dropped all pretense of opposing the war, but supporting the troops. You hate them both.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Army5339 @ Jun 3 2007, 10:09 PM) [snapback]454700[/snapback]</div>

What angers me is that you come off like everything's going swell in Iraq due to your brief stint there in the Navy four years ago, then choose to give it a miss for four years. Seems disingenuous, to me.

I think it's quite possible to go active-duty and get a degree (or equivalent) to go to OCS and get a commission. But you're skipping all that.

Yeah, ain't I terrible. I just say what I surmise a lot of people think but don't say because of that 'Vietnam guilt' the Bush administration uses so effectively, and are scared shitless of being labled 'unpatriotic', un-American, or, worse, pro-terrorism. It doesn't bother me in the least. Sort of like a lot of the guys I served with.

Maybe after you get to be in charge of some of those guys that got waivers to get into the Army so they could keep the numbers up (you know, the ones who had felony convictions and/or low test scores) in Iraq for a while, you'll change your tune. I think you're going to be in for a rude awakening in a lot of ways (provided you make it to a hostile fire zone after you finally graduate).

But, again, I'm just a dumb E5 reservist with 15 years in an MI slot who only spent a year in Iraq, so what do I know?

BTW, since you're technically 'in' the Army, do you have access to AKO (or maybe the Navy equivalent)? Ever hear of Earlybird? It's a DoD website that collects news articles and is accessable directly or through the military websites. It's quite enlightening since there's no apparent pro or con slant to the articles they assemble. It was the only thing I had a chance to read for quite some time when I was in Iraq until the NIPR internet access came online.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bigmahma @ Jun 3 2007, 09:43 PM) [snapback]454731[/snapback]</div>

Aren't there mercenary jobs(ie. blackwater) that will pay 100k+? Why don't you sign up with one of those companies. Then you'd get paid the money(since that's what you're all about) and you'd help "finish the mission"(since that's what you keep spouting that you believe in and would be there in a minute(seriously)).
Come on, let's hear your excuse now.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Jun 3 2007, 11:58 PM) [snapback]454789[/snapback]</div>

It wouldn't have to be a mercenary job. Kellogg, Brown, and Root (and anyone that they subcontract to) is hiring lots of truck drivers. Regardless of the position, all US private contractors pay at least six figures (tax-free, too).

Unfortunately, they're all rather dangerous, too, but, hey, it's all in the name of doing your part and fighting terrorism, right? Plus, unlike the low-paying lower-enlisted military types, you can quit and go home whenever you feel like it. I think I made a whopping $30k/year when I was there. Of course, I got free room and board (tent and an MRE for a couple of months), too, so I guess that made up for it. I also had the self-satisfaction of knowing I was serving my country in a great cause, which was nice.

Hell, we had one of those private contractor types in FHOP a while back. Thought Iraq was great. He was impressive until he explained what he really did. Turns out he didn't actually drive around on the highways, but just arranged deals for his company. Bet he could still even hook someone up with a good paying job over there.

For some reason, haven't seen him around on PC lately, though.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Army5339 @ Jun 3 2007, 09:47 PM) [snapback]454682[/snapback]</div>

If I'm not mistaken, the 'much more training' you refer to is a 12 week course in Fort Benning, GA. The IDF requires fifteen MONTHS split between basic training+NCO training + officer school, and I can vouch for the caliber of candidate and training difficulty.

Again, using the IDF infantry as an example of officers as leaders, the highest relative risk of death in combat occurs in medics and junior officers. What is the US army like ?

A lot points to the NCOs as being the actual field leaders in the US infantry, no doubt gained through natural attrition. The army web site admits as much, when they describe their officers as "managers".

I have to say though, that if you actually were a natural leader army5339, you would have realized this ages ago.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Jun 4 2007, 10:06 AM) [snapback]454906[/snapback]</div>

That's Officer Candidate School (OCS).

While I can't speak about the IDF, I met a Lebanese guy from my reserve unit once and have heard stories from Russian and British instructors. Becoming an officer in those services does sound a tad more...difficult.

Yeah, I'm beginning to become dubious of some of his stories, myself. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that that he's never actually been in any branch of the US military, at all, but is simply recounting the experiences of some of his buddies who were (are). IOW, a wannabe. His ambitions seem a bit far reaching for his claimed accomplishments but they do fall in line with what I've heard from other ROTC candidates I've come across.

In fact, here's a little something from www.armocs.com on how to become an officer while on active-duty:

<blockquote>"If you have a degree, great. If not, you only need 90 Semester hours to apply for OCS while on Active Duty. After you graduate from OCS, you will be given the opportunity to attend Degree Completion prior to you becoming a Captain. DC is where you're attending school full time, not attached to any unit, and receive full LT pay. The Army likes to keep DC at 1 year, but I’ve seen them go longer.

If you do not have enough college, you can continue to work on it part time while enlisted. E Army U is great for that. Don't forget about converting your Military Training to college credits. Your local Ed Center could help with the converting. "</blockquote>So, as I had suspected all along, it is very possible to enlist in the active-duty Army and go fight in Iraq immediately and still become an officer without the burden, shame, and guilt of dodging active-duty and taking ROTC classes to become an officer four years later. In fact, that's 'Option 1', which indicates to me that's exactly what the Army wants recruits to do. Army5339 took 'Option 3' and ETS'd out of the Navy early to go to ROTC while his buddies got to go back to Iraq for more tours.