Is College a Scam?

Unlike land, your kids, income, your health, your guns or even your spouse......education is something that once earned, nobody can take away from you.
However (comma!) you should never presume a direct relationship between education and intelligence. I've heard numerous comments in this forum deriding the intelligence of some unnamed high political office holders, one of which earned a BA from Yale, and an MBA from Haavard. Another I can think of holds a BA from Columbia, and a JD from Haavard.

So....there you go.

I've had three family members bundle their kids up and send them off to "pretty good" schools (2 to Purdue, and one to FSU) only to have them bounced back one semester later poorer by five figures, but wiser in the ways of world.
I always advise people to knock out their core courses at a good community college, unless they're one of the very few that posses both maturity and the wherewithal to earn a scholarship (another free educational opportunity!)
I have a couple of well-to-do uncles that 'forced' their poor offspring to to the JUCO thing before earning their BAs from one of the bigs. It worked for them.

Want a 'free' education? Join the military, or if offends your sensibilities to do so then go to work for a company that offers free tuition for its employees. Every company that I've worked for has offered this benefit.

So.....is college a scam?

I'd have to say that like many of the FHOP questions being bandied about I'd have to say "that depends."

 

A few things...

First, outsourcing. Yes, outsourcing sucks... but many companies are realizing that you get what you pay for. I'm a software engineer, so I'm very aware of outsourcing - my job can literally be done anywhere in the world (I know, I've done it with a laptop sitting on a beach at a conference out of state before). That doesn't mean the company would get the same quality or performance by outsourcing. When I was first hired, right out of college, I already had 13 years of experience programming. outsource my job to China, and you won't find that sort of experience - in fact, by the time engineers over there get to a certain level of competency with their job, most of them are shunted over into management, leaving them with very little in the way of highly experienced individuals!

Second, price of education. It's not $100k in debt for kids who actually put in the effort. I went to a very expensive school... but I did so with significant scholarships and by working while I was there. I graduated in 5 years with a BS and a MS, with 0 debt. Sure, the extra year for the masters was something like $30k (before taking into account the fellowship I got, which covered most of it)... but after graduating I got an extra $10k/year for having a Masters. 3 year payback? That's one hell of a deal!

Finally, jobs you get with that education. I would not be here today without my degree. In fact, all of the people I work with have a BS, and many also have a MS. Having a degree opens doors that would otherwise be closed to you - But it doesn't necessarily get you through those doors. The quality of the school also has a lot to say about it. I could have gone to a cheaper and easier school... but my education wouldn't have been nearly as good, and I wouldn't have gotten nearly as good a job with it.

 

Thanks. I'm still available to be Emperor of the World. As far as elected office, I'm unelectable, at least in the U.S.: Socialist atheist with a criminal history that I'm proud of and an inability to keep unpopular opinions to myself, such as that we ought to ban television, alcohol, tobacco, and SUVs unless their owners can prove a need for such a stinking monstrosity, and that driving tests should require demonstrating actual driving skill and should be repeated at regular intervals. Just because you passed a driving test when you were 17 doesn't mean you're still safe to allow on the road at 80.

 

I agree you have to put in effort with your degree to get something out of it, but putting in effort doesn't guarantee success. I have an acquaintance that got their BS in archeology. She loves it, so good for her. She went on "digs" all around the world on her own dime to get hands on training that wasnt required and she could name all the bones and pretty exceptional stuff. She works in a hotel now, checking people in.

Trade preparation is nice and we need trades people but education for higher level jobs is more important. It won't hurt a mechanic to know basic calculus, but it will hurt anyone higher up to not know it.

You can make math do anything with the correct subset of people. I guarantee you someone with a worthwhile degree will make everything back very fast versus one without. And by worthwhile, that excludes the generic MBA.

 

I would vote for an atheist socialist seeing as how that describes me. Well I am more of an anti-theist socialist as I am much less passive about my thoughts against cults.

Other than banning, I would agree. I would just severely tax the items you want to ban. UK has a TV tax (per year license fee). Introduce road use and vehicle fees and taxes based on mpg with no loopholes. Courier and transport charges would increase but that would lead to less crap.

Some states give gigantic age ranges on licenses, others make you renew every 4 years or so. Different classes of vehicles (even within passenger) should be licensed differently.

 

Cost should have no correlation to education. You should want the best education available for the field you want. It doesn't matter how much it costs.

 

Does College Still Matter? And Other Freaky Questions Answered … | Freakonomics Radio

18 minutes of your time will give you an interesting insight on this question.

 

I guess as the holder of a worthless MBA take my comment for what you see its worth. First off I'd love to hear what degrees or areas of study you find worthwhile.

Second, I do not agree that you can "make math do anything with the correct subset of people". You can use facts and figures to frame and argument, but at the end of the day 1+1=3 and the argument does not hold up to scrutiny. A great example of this is the life cycle cost analysis comparing a Hummer and a Prius and making the argument that a Hummer was a more environmentally friendly vehicle.

 

The original question was whether college is a scam. I answered this by directing attention towards the education bubble. Bubbles are scams. No one is denying that skills can be achieved through "formal" education, but the greater question still needs to be addressed. Is college-- meaning education as it is currently being packaged and sold-- a scam. The answer is a disturbing "yes". Americans have been hoodwinked and sold out on so many levels that it just isn't funny.

 

I think many people here have successfully argued that it really depends. The colleges anyone can get into, coast through, and earn a degree without effort are certainly scams - you pay a bunch of money for a piece of paper in the hopes that it will fool an employer into thinking you actually have a work ethic. Other colleges, where admittance criteria are high, people have to actively work in order to succeed and graduate, and where a real education takes place shaping that person for their future career... I'd say that's not a scam.

 

I did my first 2 years at a community college too, but it does matter which one you go to. I went to one that had an engineering department with a good reputation at the time, City College of San Francisco. A high percentage of CCSF engineering grads went on to UC Berkley for upper division and their GPA as a group in upper division was higher that those who did all 4 years at UCB.

In a Community College You will also be surrounded by students who aren't particularly motivated and don't have a clue what they are going to do with their lives, particularly in the first year. For the person who is easily led astray a CC might not be the best choice.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself. :hail:

 

A university education is a right of passage that should teach you critical thinking. In essence, it is your first corporate job. You have to please professors and meet standards and deadlines. Earning a BS degree says you can finish something, long term. You can get the same "education" on the job, but not with the polish or cost effectiveness of effort.

No one wants a dentist, physician or attorney who is not university educated. There are too many variables, life changes too quickly, and we often neglect to learn from history. Education is expensive in time, money and effort, but no one can ever take your education away from you.

Many things you cannot learn at a university, you must learn them with hands-on, minds-on activities (snow physics, agriculture, fishing, welding, come to mind). You don't need a university education to go fishing, but you need education to understand comprehensive limits, sustainable activities, and ecosystem restoration.

In many cases education institutions are often 10 years behind and must constantly play catch up. Our institutions provide long term stability for the culture. Rip off? Yes, if you expect short term rewards. In many cases you get a lifetime of a rewarding and examined life.

 

If you have a chance at checking a box or saying yes when an interviewer asks you a question that could affect your future with them, why wouldn't you take it?

 

A yearly tax on TVs would be hard to implement here. I'd just shut down TV broadcasting. You can find broadcasters much easier than you can find receivers.

The problem with use taxes is that the rich can afford them and the poor cannot. I don't want rich folks driving monstrosities to the grocery store any more than I want poor folks doing so. In a free-market quasi-democracy, taxes are the best we can hope for, so I advocate a $15/gal gas tax. But if I was Emperor of the World, I'd just ban them except for uses where they make sense. If you're going to transport 8 people, an SUV makes sense, assuming you've demonstrated that you can actually handle the thing. But if you're driving alone to the grocery store, no!

 

Yes. An education can be taken from you. It's called outsourcing and/or automation.

 

That does not take away your education....it takes away a job....and sometimes a meaningless job at that.

"Outsourcing" a $75,000 a year job for a UAW worker installing windshields onto Escalades isn't indicative of a failure in the education system...nor is it necessarily a bad thing. I like cheap cars as much as the next person, and although I did not try to tell my kid what she should do for a living, an assembly line job isn't exactly what I dreamed about for her when she was in school.

If you're currently in a job field where there is negative growth, then you can apply an education towards getting another job.

I'm just a dumb old Electronics Technician (That's what the "ET" stands for.) but I've managed to apply my education towards jobs ranging from operating a geomagnetic survey satellite, to optical oceanography, to my current occupation in telecommunications.

Yeah...life will occasionally throw a pie in your face, but I've found that people are usually self-limiting. Wipe the crap off of your face, stop felling sorry for yourself and blaming politicians, corporations, the Great Pumpkin or whatever it is that you're telling yourself that's holding you back!

Life 101.

We (still) live in one of the few countries where you can create your own job...with or without an education. I've been on both sides of that fence. Trust me. It's easier with an education!

Somebody already said it quite well.
An education will open doors for you.
YOU have to walk through that open doorway, and make whatever lies beyond it work for you. If you get whacked with a pie...find some more open doors!