Is Hell Forever?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 9 2007, 04:45 PM) [snapback]403046[/snapback]</div>

Daniel, they believe in things as long as they can make up the rules.. they will not submit to an authority that tells them what is right and wrong is my point.



They believe its wrong to kill for instance, but if not convient for them, then its ok, so she doesn't have to bear the child she is pregnant with?

You see what I mean? They want thier way and still be right even if it contradicts the "way" of a higher power.. be it God, government, or whatever.



I'm not saying government is not to be challenged.. we make up the government.. but challenging God is no biggy for them either.



God is very loving and understands pain and is empathetic for peoples situations and gives strength and grace to go through hell... but people don't always have the "right" to take things into thier own hands as if they have the right over life and death at thier choosing.



There is a difference between prayerfully seeking what "God" wants you to do about a certain situation verses just doing it on your own against all Godly counsel and word.



One acts out of faith "what pleases God", the other acts out of fear "what pleases the devil".



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Mar 9 2007, 04:56 PM) [snapback]403055[/snapback]</div>

Therein is the debate..... God is the author of what is right and wrong..not society.



We can make up our own rules allright, but God governs what is moral verses not.



He is the one that started it all, maintains it all, and will have the final say in judgement.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 9 2007, 06:02 PM) [snapback]403056[/snapback]</div>

So why are you spotlighting liberals only? It seems to me that both "liberals" and "conservatives" obey society and societal laws (at least occasionally, that is.) Once again, you've totally shown yourself to have an agenda that certainly has nothing to do with Christianity. Or did I miss the passage where Jesus (or anyone else) said, "Please don't be a liberal." For that matter, they never wrote "Please be a conservative." Rather, I remember lots about being liberal with love, and peace, and understanding.

Guess that doesn't apply to you.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 9 2007, 02:49 PM) [snapback]403050[/snapback]</div>

The movie Borat (a sick but hilarious movie) shows people "speaking in tongues." They are not speaking at all. They're just saying "la-la-la-la-la-la-la." That hardly qualifies as "speaking."

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 9 2007, 03:02 PM) [snapback]403056[/snapback]</div>

You poor sick man! What you are really saying is that they won't submit to your "authority" about what is right and wrong. And can you blame them, when you cannot construct a proper sentence in English?

Or you want them to "submit" to the Bible as a moral authority? Like maybe the part where Lot (described as the only righteous man in Sodom) offers his daughter to the mob to gang rape, as long as they'll leave his two male guests alone????? The guests turn out to be angels and save her, but Lot (this righteous man!) is perfectly willing to let his own daughter be gang-raped.

Or the bit where Joshua murders his own daughter out of gratitude to god for his victory at Jerico (where, if I remember correctly, he orders every living thing to be slaughtered in cold blood, including women and children)???

Sorry, bub, but even by your own Christian morals the Bible is one of the sickest documents around if you try to pass it off as an authority on morals. (It's actually pretty good though, if you like pornographic slasher stories, and has some excellent poetry in it. But an "authority" on morality it ain't!!!)

Now someone will accuse me of "disrespect." Damn right I'm disrespectful when human sacrifice is held up in the year 2007 as "moral."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 9 2007, 04:21 PM) [snapback]403088[/snapback]</div>

Not to worry, Daniel, even Windstrings recognizes the bible's inadequacy as a moral guide:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Feb 27 2007)</div>

Well, that was his position as recently as last Tuesday, anyway. It may have shifted since then.

I find discussions with Windstrings like driving a car with a steering column made of bungee cords - you want to steer the discussion down some logical avenue and he responds as if you had taken the offramp to Silly Boulevard. It's quite frustrating.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(livelychick @ Mar 9 2007, 06:07 PM) [snapback]403081[/snapback]</div>

I don't really care about politics.. I don't think God does either.. but I do care about morals.



In the old testament.. I have shared several times now where it speaks... I believe in Isaiah, about how liberals were referred to as vile.



This isn't a new thing. Jesus had liberal thinkers in his day too....



People that wanted power and to set up their own kingdoms of thought and fought anything that threatened it.



I used to consider myself liberal because I hate unnessesary bondage and weight from govenment all in the name of controlling for no real good except to those whe are too lazy to work.



But I see extremes flows of thought that say... all is allowable if it feels good and to just live for the moment because tommorrow may never come, and there is no God, so why worry about how we live as long as we don't offend anyone and they are consenting adults all is allowable?



Its basically a lifestyle that lives without an awareness of an overseer or even being accountable to such or anything else for that matter except thier own will and way.



Every man is right in his own eyes... thats the way it is before every culture has fallen.



I hate stop signs on wide open roads in the country where there is no traffic and anyone with common sense can see if a car is coming... I hate laws that are created foolishly without thought and being proven....



But Gods law is actually what the liberals seek but dont' know it.. its the law of freedom!



Only when you are free from the clutches of sin are you free to think clearly and see clearly and have a fresh outlook on life and be a light to others.



Sin is such a drag... yes it has an inital fruit of pleasure, but then its poison sets in and defiles and corrupts and you can't make good decisions anymore and you don't even know why things don't work out for you.

The bible words it... "they know not at what they stumble".



Liberals try to do good, but they do it free from God, so it always backfires.



We are talking extremes here.....



There is a prevelant mentality that I will label "liberal" that seems to hate God and justice and freedom and only wants pleasure for no price and to have thier own way.



Its almost like a whole spoiled and abused flower power generation of children grew up and had kids.



Most grew up fatherless, or many with abuses of different natures and they are hurting people.. but they are also a proud arrogant people who raise thier fist and blame God for all thier woes not realizing they never grew up abiding by any principles that produce good fruit.



Have you ever seen a poor person that resents the rich?

They feel like they "deserve" the nice car, boat, house, yacht that they have?

They aren't willing to go work because its easier to get freebies from welfare and bum and don't want to mess up a good thing, yet they try to prosper by instant gratification of this big job or that just to fall on their face because they never ever learned character issues that promote prosperity like diligence, submission to authority "a boss", persistence, faith in themselves to push on, working hard, patience.



They also think they deserve the welfare check you work hard to pay for and resent its not more when they could outwork us all.



What happened to welfare being for the older, cripples, widows and wounded?

The liberals have enacted laws that now give it to any "poor poor soul" that has a mental dysfunction and won't get off thier butt and go to work or go to school, or both.. Like I had to and everybody else I know thats prosperous.



They grew up in the spoiled druggy generation of "I want it now" and don't know how to pay the price for being rich.



the same happens with the liberal with morality... they look upon those that have favor with God because those people honor his precepts and are blessed and seems everything they touch prospers and they resent that they can't have it too.. so they only get angry with God and won't acknowledge that thier corrupt lifestyle is the big block.



I'm not saying that if your poor, God is against you... I'm saying you have not learned to master the principles God gave you to make wealth an if your life is full of evil, God cannot assist you.



There are plenty of "evil" people that have learned godly principles and apply them in business and they work for wealth. Gravity works on everybody.. whether just or unjust as do the principles of God.



To make it even simpler... look at the terrorist... they don't have a clue, nor have they ever learned the principles for a prosperous hard working society where everybody works together and with each other as a team to benifit the whole.. they only know to do things thier way and run over anyone who gets in thier way.



Liberals are the same way?.. How?.. liberals like to think they are so careing and "liberal".. when in fact they are the least tolerant of other lifestyles.



They resent those who appear blessed or "better" than them and want to cast them to the ground to trample on them.. they want to "flaunt thier lacivious" lifestyle for all to see and cram it down our throats, yet if we say "Jesus" we are offending them and cramming religion down thier throat?



Whats the difference?... Their religion is corruption and perversion and they call it noble and good and insist everybody should bless thier lifestyle as normal and acceptable as a wholesome part of society...

actually they don't care about "wholesome" they could care less what you think.. . they just want to be accepted and an equal or more.



Politically.. I'm not liberal or conservative.. as I don't think Jesus would be either.. but I have learned that abiding by Godly principles prospers because it frees the hand of God to bless.



Most of mans misery is not cursings from God, its simply the lack of blessings!

The Lord lets a mans own ways chastize him!



If God blesses someone who is arrogant and unrepentant, he would only be enabling them to do it the more.

Its confusing enough when God keeps the sinner from dying and falling sick, but the rightous are blessed.



It rains on the just an the unjust, but God prospers the rain from the just.



If you look at almost every nation that does not revere God, thier dirt is cursed and thier land is barren as the ground is cursed too......' Their economic system is in ruins and the people live in poverty under the reign of evil and selfishness as a gangster who lords over his territory.



Most of the middle east have incest and child rape and child homosexual acts with children and even babies thinking that will bring them purity?????

They think its right????

How come everyone that thinks thier right... thinks their right?



Doesn't there have to be a higher authority that makes the final judgement?



Iiberals do not acknowledge higher authorities.. just as Saddam wouldn't.



They take the whole bible and say its garbage.. they want thier own idol to worship and thier own laws so they erect a golden calf and have their lewd party as in moses day and make up thier own laws as if thier is no God?



The same nature that lived back in moses day.. those same spirits still walk the earth and affect men in like manner.



The land Israel now occupies too was desert and wouldn't grow anything, until Israel occupied it and became a nation again..now it grows the biggest juiciest, tastiess most nutritious fruits and vegetables around?



That happens when God blesses.



Liberals remind me of a bunch of teenage gangsters that go around trying to push thier unlearned beliefs and muscle thier wieght around to get their way and have no regard for anyone that is not part of thier club.



Am I wrong here?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 9 2007, 05:06 PM) [snapback]403102[/snapback]</div>

Short answer:
Yes.
Longer answer:
Absurdly, overwhelmingly, hopelessly.

The more important question is, are any of us learning anything out of the exchange? It's obvious those of us who insist on cold objective reason in order to be persuaded are not going to be moved by appeals to mere belief (let alone insult heaped on top of it). And those for whom belief is everything will remain (metaphorically) blind and deaf to rational argument, and especially any expression of ideas that contradicts their belief.

So it's an impasse.

Still, I'd say even if the effort seems futile, continuing a dialogue is the best course. Clamming up in frustration closes the door to any hope of reconciliation, and we all agree resorting to physical altercation would be the worst outcome (and so far I haven't seen THAT so much as hinted at by anyone, not even the pugnacious Dr. Berman). So long as we keep talking, however much it feels like we're just banging our heads against stone walls, some ideas will eventually seep through, and at the very least, we'll continue to increase our understanding of each other.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 9 2007, 07:49 PM) [snapback]403050[/snapback]</div>

Oh, okay. You are one of 'those', the extreme who speak in 'tongues'. Gibberish that some try to pass off as 'words from God'.

When I was at the assembly of God, and someone would 'speak out loud' in tongues, it would be interpreted by the pastor. Now, he would then tell the congregation what was said.

ONE problem with this: It was all set up. As a lay person (at the time), working with the staff, I was (on more then one occasion), given instruction to 'speak out in tongues', and then the Pastor would tell everyone what 'God' had said through me. Usually it was a uplifting message, designed to get people to turn in more money to the church...you know, God wanted to bless this or that, but needed more money.


Here is a question: If the Holy Spirit is leading the congregation, in joyous worship, why would the Holy Spirit be interrupted, by the Holy Spirit, with speaking in tongues?

I am ashamed to admit I was party to that behaviour, but I was in 'training' to be a Pastor in that church...

I could go on with more secrets from behind the pulpit, if you like...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 9 2007, 07:47 PM) [snapback]403116[/snapback]</div>

Even though we disagree on points.. I go appreciate your attitude... that at least shows faith and some level of respect.

thanks.... you may not be so liberal after all!.... LOL!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Mar 9 2007, 06:53 PM) [snapback]403053[/snapback]</div>

This thread has become like a really bad car crash- it's hard to look away! But I'm going to...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 9 2007, 08:45 PM) [snapback]403134[/snapback]</div>

tongues are only for a "sign" to the unbeliever as far as the visual at least.

there is indeed Order to a service if God is leading it, he would not contradict himself, but it all flows in beautiful symmetry.

There should never be a tongue interruption unless it is the gift of "tongues and interpretation" in action and of which "there should" be an interpretation.

If the interpretation never comes.. it was either because he who initiated it was out of order or the person who was supposed to interpret did not obey or maybe chickened out.

tongues alone are normally for private edification.. not for addressing groups or crowds, BUT, it is ok to pray in tongues if everybody else is too... then it becomes a global personal worship... quite beautiful to hear! and very powerful if it goes into intercession.......
just as if it would be ok to pray in english one on one to God, even though hundreds of people could be doing it at once. In those cases.... "no one" is trying to address the whole crowd with thier tongues or draw attention to themselves.

The whole point of the rules is for edification to the body, not for drawing personal attention or distracting from the flow of what God is doing in a service.

I also appreciate your are attitude about the cancer.. thats one nasty demon of a disease!....I hate it!!!

Going through it without fear is a success story in itself, but we are all flesh and fear can take its grip as we fall to sleep at night and the thoughts try to torment.

I've seen many cancers healed and I've seen others not get thier healing.

No matter what happens, it really helps people draw close to God and get right... whether God takes you home or whether he keeps you here for longer... I trust you will find him in a deeper way than you ever realized before.

If someone finds God over it.. I pray the whole world would be diseased.... but I know that alone is not the key, it's only an attention getter... it still takes a heart willing to be humbled before the Almighty God.

I know you don't want anyone praying for you and thats ok... but if I pray for people, its not because they ask me.. its because I feel compelled to by his love and compassion.....

I'm glad your still in the conversation and I apologize for my unpolished way of addressing some of your questions... I am not perfect as you know, but I do love God and know him and trust him.
I'm much more polished than I was in my earlier life, but God keeps polishing me for some reason!.. LOL!

I've enjoyed talking with you even through our disagreements.

God Bless you......


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ Mar 9 2007, 10:22 PM) [snapback]403183[/snapback]</div>

LOL!.... now thats funny!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 10 2007, 12:40 AM) [snapback]403191[/snapback]</div>

I'm able to get a laugh out of you? OK, I'll hang in for awhile :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 9 2007, 08:40 PM) [snapback]403191[/snapback]</div>

I've got news for you: No unbeliever is going to take it as a sign of anything but insanity or charlatanism when people start shouting "la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la."

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 9 2007, 08:40 PM) [snapback]403191[/snapback]</div>

How can you hate something you believe god is using for a purpose?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 9 2007, 08:40 PM) [snapback]403191[/snapback]</div>

Then you've been deluded by charlatans.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 9 2007, 08:40 PM) [snapback]403191[/snapback]</div>

I thought you hated nasty diseases? But Christians praying for other people to suffer horribly is nothing new.

 

Wait a minute - you said you pray. And you also said disease, war, and whatever is God's plan.

Now, by praying for someone to be healed, how dare you try to change God's plan! Is that the ultimate in arrogance or what? If God wanted someone to be healed, he'd heal them - if that's his plan. If God didn't want them to be healed, that's his plan, too! You have some nerve trying to get Him, with his infinite knowledge, to change his plan just for YOU.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Mar 10 2007, 12:15 PM) [snapback]403395[/snapback]</div>

Oh darnit, I cant believe Im sucked back into the MUD SLINGING thread....

Steve0 You really crack me up with your replies, :lol: the funniest thing is those of christian beliefs are laughing at you not with you... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It shows those who breeze through the thread how really wacked some of you people really are.. :huh:

It really shows most people that Windstrings has a GREAT sence of humor & a firm stand on his FAITH.
This causes me to have a DEEP RESPECT for this person as he has yet to give in to the group...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Mar 10 2007, 09:15 AM) [snapback]403395[/snapback]</div>

This is actually what Christian Science (odd name for a religion!) says: They do not pray and they discourage prayer on exactly the grounds that you cite:

1. God loves you and will do what is best for you. Prayer will not change that. And since god knows better than you what is best for you, prayer is both pointless and foolish, as you are probably asking for something that would not be the best thing for you, even though you want it badly.

2. Prayers of thanks are equally pointless, because god knows what is in your heart. If yo are truly thankful, god knows it.

What they advocate instead of prayer is that people try their best to become better people.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Mar 10 2007, 09:15 AM) [snapback]403395[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Mar 10 2007, 11:39 AM) [snapback]403447[/snapback]</div>

StevO's post is one of the most rational in this thread, and, unlike Priusguy04's reply, does NOT throw mud. What ISN'T arrogant, selfish and conceited about thinking something so all-knowing as an omnipotent "god" would deign to alter its plans, effectively overriding the laws of nature, just to satisfy the ignorant desire of some self-important ego on earth?

Can the so-called religious even BEGIN to answer this contradiction? Priusguy04 won't even try; the best he can do is deride the questioner (throw mud at him) for having the audacity to even ask it.

Again, this is one of the things I most DESPISE about religion: it's relentless discouragement of honest inquiry.

My prediction: More mud thrown at ME for posting this, but NO attempt to address the issue.

Watch.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 10 2007, 09:28 AM) [snapback]403346[/snapback]</div>

God has a way of taking what the devil mean't for evil an turning it for good.

God often shows his supremacy not by saving us from the fire "which we would be thankful, but still be afraid of the fire", instead he takes us "through" it.. when we are done.. we aren't even afraid of the fire!

No matter what, God doesn't leave.

I also hate the devil, but God takes him in his own craftiness like a wise master chess player... he takes him with his own moves!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Mar 10 2007, 03:15 PM) [snapback]403462[/snapback]</div>

Well ok, remember you asked for it.....

Mark Baird

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ok now that I have thrown mud on you.. .. It was a thoughtful idea to think my mud slinging statement was aimed at his post. But that just wasnt the case, I was refering to every ones nasty/hateful replys..

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Mar 10 2007, 11:15 AM) [snapback]403395[/snapback]</div>

Disease of sometimes the product of normal sin from past generations of genetic curses and even present activity..... God can reverse the curse if asked by the humbled heart.

some of what you say makes sense, but the missing equation to this formula is that Gods will is for "you" to execute his will by taking the authority he gives us through the power of the Holy Ghost to fight this warfare and take what has already been won on our behalf......

See, its like all the real work has already been done on the cross, and Satan lost the title deed over your life if you are free from sin, but he won't acknowledge he has been beaten unless you know it and make him leave.....
The bible teaches if you "resist him" he will flee from you.
Why does he "flee" like running away as fast as he can?

Because Gods authority will punish him if he doesn't obey... they know they have no power or authority on those that Know Jesus and have the blood on thier lives because of their free will.
If they can lie to them and get them to forget the promises of God and not believe what God has said, then due to free will they can trick them into following thier cue by believing thier lie.. this give them authority to mess you with them yet furthur.

Believing what God has said if faith in forward gear, believing what the devil has said is faith in reverse gear.

One is believing in the words of the creator based out of love, the other is believing the lies of a fool.."the devil" and its based out of fear.

(James 4:6 NKJV) But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble."
(James 4:7 NKJV) Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
(James 4:8 NKJV) Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

(James 2:17 NKJV) Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
(James 2:18 NKJV) But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
(James 2:19 NKJV) You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe; and tremble!
(James 2:20 NKJV) But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?



God always gives us something to do... its not all up to him.... "rise up and walk".. stretch out your hand, wash in the river, .... he always expect you to execute proof of whats in your heart before he acts.

Speaking has more power than thought... acts have more power than faith alone... we all know faith without works is dead....


the bible says the devil roams around as a roaring lion seeking whom he "may" devour.. he doesn't have free will.. its based on who lets him because they don't know thier rights in God... God says "my people perish for lack of knowledge.

There are many things we don't understand, but if we humble ourselves and pray, God will heal our land or our body etc.

(2 Chr 7:13 NKJV) "When I shut up heaven and there is no rain, or command the locusts to devour the land, or send pestilence among My people,
(2 Chr 7:14 NKJV) "if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.


(Hosea 5:14 NKJV) For I will be like a lion to Ephraim, And like a young lion to the house of Judah. I, even I, will tear them and go away; I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
(Hosea 5:15 NKJV) I will return again to My place Till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me."
(Hosea 6:1 NKJV) Come, and let us return to the LORD; For He has torn, but He will heal us; He has stricken, but He will bind us up.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ Mar 9 2007, 10:46 PM) [snapback]403193[/snapback]</div>

yea.. thanks... this thread could use some humor every once in a while!!!!

Whew!!!

 

Amen! Windstrings! So TRUE! I agree with every word you said! Amen! and Amen!

PriusGuy04, YOU ARE SOMETHING ELSE WITH THAT MUD-SLINGING OF YOURS! :lol: