Is Hell Forever?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 7 2007, 06:49 AM) [snapback]401543[/snapback]</div>

First of all, being a liberal has NOTHING to do with religion. I'll just say that. You lost all credibility by combining the two, and have officially placed yourself in the Pat Robertson-wannabe camp. (And btw, that's not a GOOD camp to be in...it's just crazy.)

Second, while I don't agree with Daniel's religious beliefs, he seems to be a good person. Of all the people I've seen in the past few threads concerning religion, frankly, you're the freak.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(livelychick @ Mar 7 2007, 08:59 AM) [snapback]401579[/snapback]</div>

Don't you know, if you post "If YOU DON'T BELIEVE that JESUS CHRIST is YOUR PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOUR, you are AN UNWORTHY SINNER who will BURN FOREVER IN HELL" is just posting the facts, y'know, while posting "I personally don't believe God exists" is posting HATE and BIGOTRY.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Mar 7 2007, 10:16 AM) [snapback]401626[/snapback]</div>

Sorry. I had a momentary lapse of unreason.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 7 2007, 12:48 AM) [snapback]401527[/snapback]</div>

Two wrongs do not make a right. But speaking the truth as I see it is not wrong. On the contrary, it is vety much right to stand up against a collection of fairy tales which are used to justify war and intolerance.

Directed apparently at TJ:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bsoft @ Mar 7 2007, 02:36 AM) [snapback]401532[/snapback]</div>

To be fair, TJ has never said that athiests will go to hell. He is in a small minority in that respect, but he deserves respect for it. Keydiver is another who does not believe in hell.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Mar 7 2007, 03:49 AM) [snapback]401543[/snapback]</div>

What have you been smoking today, Windstrings??? When have I bullied anyone, or shied away from defending my ideas??? Do you really think I am bullying when I say that religion is bunk? Or maybe you think I was being a bully when I walked onto an Air Force base at the front gate in open daylight with an anti-war plackard? I have no idea where you're coming from with your comment about my cat. What makes you think I cannot take it if someone says something about my cat??? Sure I have feelings. Sure it hurts when people insult me. But I reply and I defend my views.

(And by the way, nobody who ever met my cat had anything bad to say about him. Even people who don't like cats liked my cat. He was not the brightest bulb, but he was gentle and sweet with everyone.)

And where the F did you come up with the notion that I have "alienated all my loved ones and friends"????? I certainly have alienated plenty of racial bigots, and plenty of war-mongers, and plenty of fundamentalist religious zealots. But if you were to step out of the cocoon of your own church, and visit any of the peace churches I have worked alongside of, you'd hear people saying (somewhat to my discomfort, I admit) that I am "more Christian than most Christians" for my committment to peace and justice and for my volunteer work with homeless people (who my Christian friends refer to as "Christ's poor").

I've never claimed or pretended to be perfect. But I do understand the difference between knowledge and belief, which you clearly do not when you claim to "know" there is a god.

Religion is bunk. That's an opinion I hold based on all the available evidence. Belief in religion is only possible by ignoring all the evidence and discarding all logic. And it is no more justifiable for you to take offense at that statement, or to regard it as a personal attack, than it would be for me to take offense if you said you don't like cats.

If you don't like cats, that's your right, and I do not take offense at it. If you state that cats are stupid or dirty or generally nasty, I will disagree with you, and perhaps argue with you but I will not take it as a personal attack on me. So where do you get off taking it as a personal attack if I state that religion is bunk, and give my reasons for it. Argue all you want that I am wrong. but don't whine and cry and complain that I am insulting or offending you. Because my opinion of religion has nothing to do with you.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Mar 7 2007, 05:10 AM) [snapback]401559[/snapback]</div>

It's very hard to see when someone you are angry with makes a joke. I have the same problem. You make jokes sometimes and I think you are being serious, because I expect you to say things I'll disagree with. I make jokes and you think I am being serious, for the same reason.

Literary satirists have the same problem: nearly everyone takes them seriously, and they get in great trouble for it. It often remains for later generations to see the joke.

 

I went to Hell once. It is a little town in Michigan (Pop. 266 or so). Stoped for gas and a drink. It took 15 minutes or so but was not everlasting.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(livelychick @ Mar 7 2007, 07:59 AM) [snapback]401579[/snapback]</div>

Your correct there!



Walking in "liberty" does!.. big difference!



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(huskers @ Mar 7 2007, 10:41 AM) [snapback]401697[/snapback]</div>

I wasn't aware they served drinks in hell?



Probrably plenty of gas around though! :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(huskers @ Mar 5 2007, 04:45 PM) [snapback]400579[/snapback]</div>

Check out Newsweek > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17388557/site/newsweek/

The tomb is in a different neighboorhood than where scholors believe Jesus was buried. The names back then were very common. Sorry, this find was no better done than the search for Weapons of Mass Destruction.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Delta Flyer @ Mar 7 2007, 12:58 PM) [snapback]401715[/snapback]</div>

Interesting article. They roundly condemn James Cameron for being sensationalist and exploiting religion to make money, which is probably a valid criticism. But for an "expert opinion", they go to a dean from Bob Jones University. Interesting quote: he claims that Christianity, which is rooted in "historical fact", is different from “other world religions that are based in myth.†So much for tolerance. Of course, it was Bob Jone who once said that the Catholic church is "not another Christian denomination. It is a satanic counterfeit, an ecclesiastic tyranny over the souls of men." And Bob Jones U. only lifted it's ban on interracial dating in 2000 because of the embarrassment that resulted from G.W. Bush's campaign visit.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 7 2007, 01:34 PM) [snapback]401692[/snapback]</div>

First, thanks for the kind assessment; I have never said in these threads, if atheists will go to hell. For I have no earthly idea where anyone goes after they die; I just believe in heaven and hell. I am not sure beyond that. I have heard it been said by some smart folks, you will be surprised as to who is in heaven.

Billy Graham, recently had a change of heart about this. And it's getting him in hot water with the Uptight, Out Of Sight, Christians. He said in a interview, that he had no idea who would be in heaven, since he was not God.

Clearly, if one of the most respected Christian minds can change, there is hope for a lot of people.

For the record: Until I die, and find out what is on the other side, I will believe in what I believe now, and that is that. I won't for one minute pretend to know it all, and what happens on the other side; nor will I condemn anyone who doesn't believe in heaven or hell. Not my place, don't want it, and as far as I am concerned, not up to me.

Second, on the use of 'fairy tales'; are there not other ways to say, you don't believe in the Bible, without calling them 'fairy tales'?

Doesn't bother me, but IMO, it weakens your argument, and pulls you down to the level of those who say that all atheists are whack, and going to hell. It seems childish to me, or beneath you, to do that.

We can disagree, or agree, but in the course of a discussion, sight unseen with you or anyone else, for that matter, words carry weight.

Daniel, I will always defend your right to say what you believe. As a former Navy man, who served his country, I would have gladly put my life on the line for you to say and do as you wish.

As a current preacher, I would stand along side you as you rally for peace. I would treat you with respect, and in turn, that would all I would ask for.

Many who know that I am a preacher, wonder how I can tolerate, even give respect, to beliefs other then my own, and it's quite simple.

Jesus did. And I follow Him. Not some religion, or sect, or a book...just Him. I respect His ideals, and His message of peace. He would be annoyed to no end, when it comes to people fighting in His name, or condemning people in His name.

It's a fundamental thing about Christ that a lot of 'Christians' miss: Jesus was a Man Of Peace. Not war.

Any 'quote' attributed to Him, in the Bible about advocating war, was more then likely, put in there by some over zealous early church founders. More to the pity, since we don't have proof, of what exactly Christ said.

But what I gather from the gist of what Christ spoke on, was a message of peace. Too bad it's been corrupted.

 

I chose the Newsweek article figuring it might be one of the more even-handed articles. Unfortunately, if had that part about Bob Jones University.

The tomb was found in 1980 - 27 years ago. Some have said James Cameron is viewing this as a money making opportunity...I tend to agree with that theory.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Delta Flyer @ Mar 7 2007, 01:58 PM) [snapback]401715[/snapback]</div>

What I find fascinating, is that people on both sides of the argument, want to disprove the findings.

As far as I am concerned, so what if it's the bones of Jesus? So what if He had a wife and child? In fact, why wouldn't/couldn't He have had a wife and child? I would think if Jesus had a wife and child, that would encourage others to do the same thing, since to many, that would be a way to be more like Christ.

It has always confused me why so many Christians can't wrap their brains around the idea that Christ was Human. And therefore, would act, well, human.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 7 2007, 11:30 AM) [snapback]401737[/snapback]</div>

Billy Graham has also said he does not have all the answers - I don't either. He does not get much mention here - too much use of bad poster boys on threads like this.

He is sort of repeating Luke 6:37: "Do not judge, and you will not be judged". That's God's call - not mine as far as who is in Heaven or not.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Delta Flyer @ Mar 7 2007, 01:32 PM) [snapback]401740[/snapback]</div>

I agree with it also. I just hope that this movie is better than "Titantic."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Delta Flyer @ Mar 7 2007, 11:48 AM) [snapback]401749[/snapback]</div>

Your right, we cannot judge, but God does give us some guidelines to know what to expect.. otherwise he could not hold us accountable.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 7 2007, 11:46 AM) [snapback]401746[/snapback]</div>

What confuses me are those who forbid to marry.. btw.. the bible talks negatively about those people too!



but whats up with not marrying a woman, yet you can have sex with little boys and men?


And totally out of wedlock at that!.. isn't that fornication?... if its ok with men.. is it also ok with beast?



Just how far off the track has this gone?


I think they totally missed the point here!... LOL!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 7 2007, 09:30 AM) [snapback]401737[/snapback]</div>

I use the term "fairy tale" when I am feeling generous enough to not use the word "bunk." In my view, the story of an invisible man in the sky is identical in quality and credibility with stories of handsome knights slaying dragons and living happily ever after with beautiful princesses. Both were invented out of the imagination of writers. The fairy tales actually are less to be condemned, because by and large they are presented as fiction, for amusement. Religion is presented as "Truth" and used to foment prejudice, hate, and war.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Mar 7 2007, 09:30 AM) [snapback]401737[/snapback]</div>

We are agreed on this point. And in fact there are many deeply religious people in the peace movement. The most radical non-violent anti-nuclear activists, the Plowshares movement, is made up largely of religious people who justify their acts of physically damaging weapons by their conviction that they are obeying the commands of God, as conveyed in the Bible. As I mentioned earlier, when I have worked with these people, either in anti-war work, or in volunteer service to the homeless, they are fond of telling me that I am Christian, in spite of the fact that I believe there is no god. For them, being "Christian" has nothing to do with beliefs, and everything to do with how you live your life. (This of course is a great point of contention within Christianity, and much Christian blood has been shed by Christians over the dispute.)

 

Jesus was never for "instigating" war as he was a man of peace, but when evil knocks at the door to overthrow and corrupt, battle is the only solution.

Jesus in fact proclimed that if you thought he came for peace you were wrong.. but that he came that Father would rise against the son and vice versa.. anyone who is a friend with the world and goes to sleep with them and makes love with them is not a christian but a decieved soul.

Jesue taught his diciples to make war with spiritual forces and battle with then enemy on his own ground.

Killing flesh and blood does not solve this... therein is the confusion.

However it sometimes fixes it!

Example..... God did not "want" to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, in fact put in Abrahams heart to ask him to forbear if he could find "any" righteous, God would spare the whole city!.. and God agreed.. but since there was none that could be found and the corruption was overflowing beyond help and hope of repentance.. God fixed it with War!..... of course going to war with God is never too good of an outcome for yourself!

See the difference?...... Don't answer.. I forgot your blind.....

 

I really try to look at most things openly, I have started to understand your replies as you have with mine..
I cant really say I've ever seen you call people names you may not answer a post that one will agree 100%

But others in FHOP, they know who they are! <_< are filled with just as much Hate & bigotry as the OP posting the bigoted threads...

I find its really difficult to understand the replies as to wether or not they are replying being serious or joking with out the little faces....

Thats why I always add them to my posts....

I attend church with liberals and work side by side with liberals, only during election times do we look at eachothers kinda funny... but after the elections are over we do not rub it in the others face..

It seems that 90% of the anti-religious talk is coming from Liberals in FHOP.. That would make a person take a step back and think, wouldnt it?

I keep falling into my signature.. :angry: Never argue with a idiot; they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." when the name calling starts....

I think its really sad to see the posters running around trying to belittle others in an attempt to make them selves feel better... Again They know who they are....
I have learned though to grin and bare it..

 

P.S. Just for the record, I can not remember when, if ever Windstrings has called someone something point blank, he has asked questions..

He has always been moderately respectful and kept his cool even when others are calling him every name on the internet.. Thats more than I can say for myself :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Mar 7 2007, 06:19 PM) [snapback]401931[/snapback]</div>

I agree 100%. Here's just one example of that nonsense.

 

Actually, I think he told me that I worship the dark lord. It was either him or loveit. Either way, I thought that was pretty terrible.

BTW--I don't worship the dark lord.