Is it fair to say GM will eat a lot of money on battery warranty work?

Discussion in 'Chevrolet Volt' started by Skoorbmax, Nov 9, 2011.

  1. mfennell

    mfennell New Member

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    And your irrational hatred of a corporation (and naivete to think that the others behave any differently) is yours. In one thread, you give the apologist's line for Nissan's crappy non-warranty on the battery, then confidently assume that GM's far better warranty will somehow be voided. Because you just know GM will screw people even though you've never owned a GM product yourself AFAIK.

    I was reluctant to even step into my local Chevy dealer based on my preconceived notions but I'm glad I did. I have no particular "faith" in GM but my experience with the car and GM has been nothing but good. My one warranty issue (a slow opening charge door) was handled with an overnight parts shipment and zero issues.
     
  2. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Uh huh. Enjoy your GM kool-aid, just do not expect another bailout.
     
  3. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    You would call it defective. But the wording does not call it defective. The wording states what is "expected," but never states that "below expected" is "defective." This is a legal contract, and lawyers are meticulous and precise in their use of language. If they say they will replace defective parts, but never say just what level of reduction in capacity constitutes defective, then they are off the hook. The existence of ambiguity is always a red flag in a legal contract, and this is beyond ambiguous into downright vacuous.

    If a part or a cell or a pack quits working, they'll repair or replace it. As long as it is working, they can say it's not defective, just experiencing normal wear and tear.

    Oh, they'll get the bailout all right. There's too much political clout and corruption involved for them not to. But it will be the execs to get bailed out, not the customers.

    mfennell Please note:

    When you place someone else's words in quotes and you alter them in any way, even if it's only to correct spelling, you place the altered text in square brackets. Anything else is lying stinking dishonesty. You can add emphasis and note at the end "emphasis added," or "emphasis mine" or some other suitable indication.

    Otherwise, when you alter another person's words, you place your words outside the quote marks or quote box.

    You can quote someone's words and then dispute them. You can add emphasis and then say "emphasis mine" and then dispute them. But you don't alter someone else's words within a quote unless you wish to be known as a liar. When you place someone else's words in quotes, you are claiming that that person said them. Changing the words within a quote is lying, and the arguments of a liar are worthless.
     
  4. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Unfortunately, it is consumers like mfennel that allow miserable corporations like GM to exist under the pretense that "they are all the same."

    They all are driven by profit, but some go the Toyota way, and some the GM way. And in that they are very, very different.
     
  5. drees

    drees Senior Member

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    There are no fans in the LEAF's battery pack at all. Battery temperature management is completely passive, except for the pack heater for extremely cold temperatures (-22F/-30C) in 2012 models.
     
  6. Roadburner440

    Roadburner440 Member

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    I would say in the end GM will wind up repairing the battery packs instead of replacing them. For now they are replacing the entire pack, but only so they can analyze the faulty packs in their entirety to see if it is manufacturing defect, assembly process faults, or abuse... I think once they are done gathering this data they will simply be intructing dealers to repair the packs since that will be the cheaper route for GM.

    Not going to say all corporations are the same. Granted they are all driven by the desire to make more money. Some try to do it without hosing their customers while others will trample all over them. It all depends on your interactions with people, and who you talk to sometimes that determines your outcome. The curious thing with the PiP will be if the battery is modular as well, or if it will be the same as the current Prius HV battery in which you will have to replace the entire unit.
     
  7. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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    I think it is fair to say:

    GM will have hybrid battery warranty claims, just as Toyota does;
    Warranty claim rate will not be determined for at least a few years;
    Claims will not bankrupt the company because Volt production is limited;
    There will be an internal reman program;
    Vast majority of claims will involve replacing 1 out of 9 modules;
    Prius PHV claims will involve replacing 1 out of 4 subpacks.
     
  8. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Or, GM will have closed the Volt program before problems start cropping up from public and corporate apathy.
     
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  9. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    How many battery warranty claims have there been so far? With relatively few cars built so far, a lot of claims suggests poor-quality manufacture.
     
  10. drees

    drees Senior Member

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    I think that any concerns regarding Volt battery pack issues are definitely overblown here, especially given that they will be selling ATPZEV versions (10 year/150k mi warranty) soon with no apparent change to battery management.

    Battery pack failures will always be limited to 1 or 2 cells/modules weaker than the rest of the pack regardless of who is making the pack.

    What is really needed is an advanced BMS system that allows one to bypass weak cells with only a minimal amount of performance loss instead of that weak cell bringing down the performance of the entire pack.
     
  11. drees

    drees Senior Member

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    From reading the gm-volt forum, seems to be pretty rare, though far more frequent than LEAF battery issues. I'd guess that they are less likely than Roadster pack issues from what I've seen so far.
     
  12. Roadburner440

    Roadburner440 Member

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    So far I only know of 2 full battery changes on the Volt. One of those done by the dealer around the corner from our new house in Hampton, VA... Both cases were due to a temp sensor inside the case failing, and throwing codes on the DIC.. They could just replace the sensor, but GM wanted the entire packs back to look at them apparently. Both cases were resolved with the cars turned back to the owners in about 3 days time. So far no issues with the actual battery itself though that I know of from the GM-volt.com forums. We shall see though.
     
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    To the original question, I say no. Potential warranty claims are factored into the vehicle's price. Now, the battery is new territory, but unless they really under estimated it, GM won't lose a lot.
     
  14. Felt

    Felt Senior Member

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    That is a very interesting point that I too had wondered about. [I think] most leased vehicle are penalized for excessive tire wear at the end of the lease, and they certainly are when mileage exceeds the lease agreement.

    I hope we get more comments on that question.
     
  15. Roadburner440

    Roadburner440 Member

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    I will let you guys know in 32 more months. If the battery degrades though, and they don't cover it for warranty purposes I don't see how they can hold me accountable for it. Seems kind of like a lawsuit in the making. Nothing in the lease or Ally wear package though specifically states anything about the battery. By the time my lease is up though I think a battery change will be no more than changing a battery in a Prius. We shall see though.
     
  16. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    If they take the position that the battery is a wear item, like brakes or tires, they would hold the driver responsible. Thus no warranty coverage, and by the same token, they could charge for "excessive wear" at the end of the lease period. Same logic in both cases.

    I'm not saying they will take this position, just that both denial of warranty and end-of-lease surcharge would come by the same logic from the same position.

    And I don't trust GM as a company.
     
  17. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    not really. all new product intros can have a potential to have high intial failure rates due to lack of volume and the inherent limitations of the QA process

    an unavoidable fact of life that Nissan has addressed by providing replacements by modules. i have not read or seen whether GM has taken this seemingly "no brainer" approach


    in any new product, fully understanding failures that did not manifest themselves during the QA testing requires a root cause analysis and the ability to reproduce the error. taking the entire pack makes sense since it one helps to better recreate the exact scenarios the issues occurred plus it builds brand loyalty to the customer who gets the impression that GM is "covering all its bases" to insure no more inconvenience to the customer


    batteries have to be treated as wear items simply because they are. but like any wear item, there is an expected lifetime under normal usage conditions as well. you dont do brake jobs on one year old cars, etc.

    there is a fine line here and since "worn out" batteries actually have most of their capacity left means a prorated trade in purchase is the only obvious solution here. now, GM has not been known to do the "right thing" or the sensible thing. so we shall see...or should i say, others will see. they priced me out of their market
     
  18. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    That'd be a major EV1 type Déjà vu IMO ... as when GM took the EV1's back (to crush them) - GM charged the lessees for cracked spoilers (which admittedly were low to help decrease drag). Oh the irony. ;)

    .
     
  19. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Sadly, GM has a reputation for ever-changing plans. When they finally decided to endorse hybrids rather than fighting them with their "stop gap" campaign, we kept hearing different intentions for Two-Mode. They couldn't make up their mind how it would be configured & implemented. I started my more extensive blogging in part to keep track of the frequent changes.

    Recently, we've been seeing the same thing again with both eAssist & Volt. To make matters even more confusing, weak Volt sales have stirred executive talk about a more affordable version being offered. But to keep the reputation of Volt intact, it would be rolled out as a Cruze instead.

    Now, there's the mess with post-accident fires. Having such a difficult to access battery-pack is going to complicate matters. Watching the shoot-the-messenger & conspriracy-theory responses to that in addition to the cold-season efficiency drop evasion, you can see trouble brewing. Those enthusiasts didn't bother studying history, despite countless warnings about market problems of the past.

    To think that warranty claims later could make the mess even more complex, it makes you wonder how the heck GM will become competitive.
    .
     
  20. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    This link said Volt battery is good for 2,500 cycles. At 35 miles per charge, that's 88k miles. For those rarely put miles with gas, don't expect it to last more than 100k miles.
     
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