Is poverty a root cause of terrorism?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jul 2 2007, 07:48 AM) [snapback]471473[/snapback]</div>

Excuse me. In the nineteen years that Jordan controlled the old city, Jews were prohibited from the Western Wall, Judaism's holiest site.

In the forty years since Israel took control over the old city and the Temple Mount, Muslims have been free to worship at Al Aqsa and Dome of the Rock mosques and Jews have been forbidden to enter the site where these two mosques are located without advance permit from the police.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Jul 2 2007, 02:27 PM) [snapback]471624[/snapback]</div>

Stop stating inconvenient facts!

And dont you know, its all the Jews fault. They dont share. The defend themselves against homocide bombings by building a barrier to prevent the human bombs from crossing the border into Israel's pizzerias, malls, buses. The have a free press. The have a peaceful transfer of power. They give back land for nothing in return like the Gaza Strip. They give back land for the promise of peace and protection from the UN - Southern Lebanon. They allow rockets to be fired into its cities with severe and massive retaliation. The allow other religions the freedom of worship in Israel. They allow other religions to hold office and obtain an education. They build an economy without natural resources except their brains. They farm the desert. They attract companies like Intel, Microsoft, Dell, IBM, etc to open shop their (in spite of Arab boycotts). They invest their money in their people and have raised life expectancies, levels of literacy, levels of education to world leading levels. They produce Nobel Prize winners.

The only thing they dont do, and what the Arabs do very well, is make homocide bombers - seems the Palestinians corned the market in that commodity.

Oh, forgot about the number of UN resolutions - Israel leads its arab neighbors and Palestinians by a wide margin here - tell me because i dont know, how many resolutions have been passed against Israel and against the Palestinians or arab countries?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Jul 2 2007, 10:38 AM) [snapback]471503[/snapback]</div>

I am not so sure about that:
Examples of verses from the Quran which have been quoted to justify attacks on civilians include

Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not. 2:216

The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; 5:33

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. 9:5

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! 9:29-30


Christians belive that a martyr is some one who is killed for their faith while a Muslim belives that a martyr is some one who 'kills the infidel' and dies while doing it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Essayons @ Jul 2 2007, 03:37 PM) [snapback]471692[/snapback]</div>

stop providing inconvenient truths for the non-believers. They think the war on terror is a bumper sticker slogan - its our fault.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(formerVWdriver @ Jul 2 2007, 08:18 AM) [snapback]471493[/snapback]</div>

The U.S. gets involved in the Middle east because there's oil there. Israel is a convenient ally of the U.S. That's the connection. Not "oil in Jerusalem." Of course, some conservatives see the world in such black and white terms that they cannot see the complexities of interrelated issues.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 2 2007, 08:33 AM) [snapback]471495[/snapback]</div>

You have your head so far up your rectum that you should get a job as a contortionist in a circus.

When have I ever excused violence? I HAVE NEVER ONCE, ON PC OR ELSEWHERE, DEFENDED OR EXCUSED VIOLENCE. But because I condemn the violence of my country, as much as I condemn the violence of everybody else, the most pathetic attack poodle on PC calls me "un-American." And because I assert that if you want peace you must understand what motivates your enemies, the attack poodle of PC accuses me of blaming the U.S. and excusing its enemies.

I have consistently condemned I OPPOSE ALL VIOLENCE!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jul 2 2007, 03:23 PM) [snapback]471837[/snapback]</div>

Don't let our resident troll rattle you, Daniel. First, he's totally deaf to honest discourse, so it's a complete waste of time to attempt any direct discussion with him. Second, to any reader with half a brain, he mangles his own arguments far more effectively than your 32 point boldface rebuttals, so you don't need to "correct" him against the possibility that someone reading the exchange will think he's got it right. Third, for anyone who does think the good Dr. has got it right, I seriously doubt you care what that kind of mind thinks. Fourth, and finally, by descending to his tactics of personal attack, you concede that the excrement pretending to be dialogue that he flings at people works. Our friend the Dr. may be harmless as a marshmallow, but rhetorically he's got the terrorists' mindless brute force methods down pat.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

In answer to the OP's question...poverty only becomes poverty when there is another standard which it's measured against.

Did Native Americans live in poverty before White People made their appearance?

I suspect that *they didn't think so.*

But, when compared to the Northern European Way (at least by Northern Europeans)...well, Native Americans were savages...right?

Thing is...there are *lots* of ways to measure poverty. Is someone with an ARM, lots of credit card debt, and an impending heart attack from too much fast food poorer or richer than someone living a debt free, low cholestrol life in an 'underdeveloped' country?

Depends on whom you ask.

I think the question itself is immersed in the Northern European experience.

I'd guess that most Americans would reply, "yes, of course, poverty=terrorism" (and if we could only give everyone in Iraq every material object they desire, terrorism would stop), Why? Because we've been taught from day one that to surroud yourself with objects --and live in the way we do, with the goal of *possession*-- makes you a modern, sophisticated, self-sufficient person.

So, anyone who doesn't have this opportunity must automatically want it...right?

Wrong.

And anyone who chooses to live in the way that we do will automatically benefit from it...right...?

Ummmm, no. Wrong again.

So, no, I don't think that poverty=terrorism.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jul 2 2007, 05:54 PM) [snapback]471942[/snapback]</div>

I agree with much of the thrust of your argument, with one caveat: Not having enough to eat is poverty by any measure.

 

Poverty is all relative... Even for Daniel, it would be tough to define "enough to eat". Here in America, the definition of enough to eat is much higher than in some other countries. I supposed you could set the minimum of "enough to stay alive", but at the same time, that amount varies per person, depending on size, weight, physical exertion, age, etc.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Jul 2 2007, 08:23 PM) [snapback]471916[/snapback]</div>

does that make me a victim of poverty :lol:

our resident troll - does that give the ability to use this as a tax deduction too?

i am not deaf to honest discourse, but it is easy to identify mindless points of view as they correspond to terror and the killing of innocent people.

perhaps you should try living through a 9/11 yourself? Ever lose of friend(s) and/or a neighbor(s) by jumping off a 1/4 mile high building instead of being burned alive? Ever wonder if you daughter was killed by terrorists? Ever live through the panic of a mass terror attack? Ever see a kid waiting for his dad to come home for six weeks - oblivious to the fact he was never coming home again - that he never had a chance to say goodbye? Ever meet a 9/11 widow who cant eat meat because it reminds them of their husbands being burned alive? Ever not be able to bury someone because they did not find the body or even a piece of it? Ever have a 6'4" 225lb young man reduced to one square inch of cheek bone? Ever go to a firehouse that lost 10 men and both ladder trucks? Ever wonder if your daughter was killed in a terror attack - the ABSOLUTE PANIC YOU FEEL WHEN YOU CANT TALK TO THEM, THAT THEIR CELL PHONE IS NOT WORKING - KNOWING THEY WERE RIGHT THERE WHEN IT HAPPENED - OF RUNNING DOWNTOWN TO SEARCH FROM THEM IS A SEA OF HYSTERICAL PEOPLE - A NEEDLE IN A HAYSTACK - OF TEARS AND FEAR AND RAGE THAT SOME SH**HEAD MIGHT HAVE SNUFFED HER LIFE OUT FOR SOME PERVERTED RELIGIOUS IDEOLOGY - OF SIRONS, AND SHOUTING, OF RUMORS OF ADDITIONAL ATTACKS AND DEATHS?

Try it one day - you might actually start thinking correctly - or at least understand why some of us think the way we think. Saddly, when they attacked the WTC the first time during Clintons presidency - HE DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING - i guess only because 6 innocent American civilians were killed and only 1,000 injured. I think he let the terrorists feel as though they could take another shot at us - and they got it right the second time around.

and it is as though you learned nothing from this - you think they are not coming after us.... it makes me sick. i only wish that when the next big terror plot hits, it hits somewhere else and not Gotham - some liberal town perhaps (not that i would wish that on anyone mind you) - but i am tired of being the center of the bullseye.

You should never know or feel what i went through on 9/11 or the period following it.

 

Just because you're in NYC doesn't give you blanket rights to say what should or shouldn't be done in response to 9/11. You weren't the only one with family and or friends in the city. Believe it or not, many people know what it was like. Imagine being in downtown Cleveland, seeing the initial news coverage, then being ordered to evacuate because they believe that the Key Bank building could be the next target. I bet it was a little something like what you felt.

So seriously dude, when you say "i am not deaf to honest discourse, but it is easy to identify mindless points of view as they correspond to terror and the killing of innocent people." Please recognize that your viewpoint is extremely clouded by your close personal feelings in the matter, and that you perhaps aren't the best person for determining what a midless point of view is for this issue.

 

Wrong root cause.

'Jealousy' is the root cause of most evil on Earth. Someone else has what the jealous person wants. Someone else 'sins' without the fear of eternal punishment that the jealous person feels. Stuff like that.

Beat jealousy, and the world would be a much better place...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Jul 3 2007, 10:44 AM) [snapback]472250[/snapback]</div>

I know my viewpoint is not the only one - it is however one of the few that actually lived through 9/11 up close and very personal.

I hope you are having better success than i am of overcoming the effects of 9/11. I still re-live the smoke, the fire, the fear and rage, the tears - i vividly recall my 7 year old son visiting my local firehouse and giving the fireman who was collecting money for his 10 fallen mates his first $20 bill he had collected for losing his first tooth that week - i will never forget the boy next door who kept staring out his window waiting for his dad to come home - of his mother's unmearsurable grief - of funerals - - - you kind of get it -- but you will never know or understand how it played on us and plays in me every day.

so i am sorry if you still reel from 9/11 pains like i do - i really am - i can only imagine what you must be going through if it is even 1/10th of what i live with, and what i am reminded of way too often.

every time i see the God-damned whole in the ground - it kills me -- every anniversary i sit through the entire name reading - every time i get the sense of another attack - it cuts to my core.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 3 2007, 09:03 AM) [snapback]472224[/snapback]</div>

I hope I never do experience what you're going through. It truly does sound awful. I bet there are some people in Baghdad who could relate.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(formerVWdriver @ Jul 4 2007, 08:04 AM) [snapback]472875[/snapback]</div>

I only ever got a quarter!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jul 2 2007, 08:54 PM) [snapback]471942[/snapback]</div>

Take it a step further...

What do people think when they barely have enough water to drink, yet they can see people who have so much water that they're outside watering lawns.

That's the plight of a lot the palestinian people.

And they have every right to be annoyed about that. Of course, if the people in control of the water (the Israelis) would just loosen up a bit, maybe it'd be a nice first step towards cooling things down.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 3 2007, 07:03 AM) [snapback]472224[/snapback]</div>

Sounds to me as if you may be suffering from PTSD. Have you been tested?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 4 2007, 11:27 AM) [snapback]472992[/snapback]</div>

Excellent point. It's just one of the many indignities and injustices the palestinian people suffer, but it is emblematic and illustrative of the situation, and of the frustration of a people who have lived under hostile foreign occupation for the entire lifetime of many adults today.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Jul 4 2007, 01:24 PM) [snapback]472939[/snapback]</div>

I am sure - and that is sad. I also know people in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and Sderot that have been there too. At least in Bagdad and Israel they know they wake up every morning with that risk.

I walked out of our local Starbucks (one of many to see the first tower smoking - that was the first of many surreal moments that day. When the second plane hit - we all knew something major was up. A short while later when they said that the first tower had collapsed - that was when the s**t hit the fan - it was all downhill from there.

I still to this day cannot believe we cannot get the Freedom Tower up and built already in all these years. The Manhattan skyline - whenever i see it without the WTC's looming large (my first date with my wife was there in 1977) makes me sick to my stomach - a very visceral reaction. And I will admit, it brings a sense of rage and hate against the people who did it that has not been lessened with time.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Jul 4 2007, 02:52 PM) [snapback]473008[/snapback]</div>

Thanks for your concern - No I have not been "tested" - nor will i be. I pretty much think it is fairly normal for what i went through. I cant imagine erasing those memories - and i think the reality of living through that will serve me well in the future - it is impossible for me to put my head in the sand when it comes to islamofascism and islamoterrorism.