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Is Richard Dawkins afraid to debate the best?

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by Chuck., Aug 25, 2011.

  1. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    What is it about religion and politics that brings out such strong feelings? People can freely discuss all manner of various philosophies, even ones they believe strongly in, without getting upset. There's a big difference between saying 'you're stupid' and saying 'that's a stupid idea', yet that distinction seems to have gotten lost here recently. Is it possible to apply the doctrine of 'hate the sin, love the sinner' to areas of strong disagreement? People should be able to debate contentious ideas calmly and rationally, without feeling personally threatened or hurling insults.
     
  2. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    ^ I tried that last night to no avail, then accused of being like the quarrelsome people that attacked me.
     
  3. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    With all due respect, Chuck, I read that as more of a debate than a personal attack. Try to separate your emotions from the beliefs.
     
  4. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    ^ then why did he apologize afterwards?
     
  5. Trebuchet

    Trebuchet Senior Member

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    Really? Tell me about this approach.
     
  6. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    I don't know, Chuck. You'll have to ask him that.
     
  7. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

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    There is nothing to tell. That is my observation of which group starts flapping their gums about religion or lack of religion first.
     
  8. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    hyo silver, he explicitly said so in post #32.

    In post #30, don't you think emotional content like "Tough patooties, buster" and comparisons with Palin and listing a litany alleged crimes by religion is running counter to a constructive discussion? Just skim post #30.
     
  9. Trebuchet

    Trebuchet Senior Member

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    It's the method that is used. Ask APK about his methods and why he felt he had to apologize to Chuck and then ask yourself why you didn't see anything wrong with it. :rolleyes:

    Saying "that's a stupid idea" when applied to someone's beliefs is exactly the same as saying "your stupid" there is no distinction whatsoever. :nono:

    Hate the sin love the sinner is a Christian tenet happy to have you acknowledge and adopt at least a minor portion of our beliefs. :p

    Once again I'd like to point out that the contentious feelings and irrationally is coming from the atheist not the Christians. We've tried numerous times to have a rational discussion but almost every utterance from our side is met with contemptuous ridicule or mockery . If it were the other way around then pick up the gauntlet I've thrown down to others on this board and lets do a post by post comparison. I have a feeling you'll be the fourth person to ignore this challenge.
    :nod:
     
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  10. Trebuchet

    Trebuchet Senior Member

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    What basis or what are you observing to come to this conclusion? If it's this forum then I'm going to have to challenge you the same as I've done to qbee42, APK, hyo silver and some others to do a side by side comparison. I'd like to point out that those named above have all ignored this challenge, will you also?
     
  11. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    Empathy test

    Secular folks - picture this.

    You join an automotive forum because you are interested about that car. Once you join, you realize there is a lot of off-topic religious talk. Not just people self-identifying their faith, but proselytizing and explicit ridicule of people that are not religious. People like airportkid being asked questions again, again, and again: "Prove to me there is absolutely no God - absolutely."

    How would you feel?



    Now is any of you honest enough to acknowledge there is a role reversal from that hypothetical situation here? For the rest of you, why are you any different from the Spanish Inquisition?

    I and other believers have never tried to ram my beliefs upon you - it's not there.

    I'll be shocked is anyone of the secular persuasion will acknowledge this double standard.
     
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  12. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

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    68 years of living. This forum isn't a significant blip on the radar.
     
  13. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    Post 30 was mine. I'll assume you mean post 31.

    OK, so 'tough patooties' was perhaps less than polite, and the comparison with Palin was not very nice. Apparently his emotions temporarily got the better of him, and he apologised.

    The larger questions in the remainder of the post have yet to be answered in a meaningful way. The earlier description of abortions in China as a reason to dismiss atheism seems rather strange.
     
  14. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    My post numbers may have been incorrect. :eek:

    Glad you skimmed them.

    No holding my breath, but if everybody could get in a non-combative tone, that would definitely be helpful.
     
  15. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Religion and politics are both areas where some people exert control over the lives of others. Once something directly affects the way you live, it no longer is a philosophical discussion.

    If we agree to discuss politics from ancient times, or religion on another planet, then I suspect most of us can do it objectively. If, on the other hand, you tell me I have to attend your church or the state will seize my my house and take away my kids, then things might get a little hot.

    Tom
     
  16. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    That's a plausible explanation. Thank you.


    Yeah, laws like that keep me from doing a few things. I value my children too much to risk them or their home.

    I hunch you'd like my 'church'. Still, I wouldn't make you go.
     
  17. Trebuchet

    Trebuchet Senior Member

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    You avoided the question. :glare:
     
  18. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

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    You said
    And I told you this forum was only a very small part of it. If keeping score is that important to you, feel free to do it yourself.
     
  19. Trebuchet

    Trebuchet Senior Member

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    Would you say that your observations on the approaches used by theist holds true in this forum? I'm not keeping score just trying to quantify some of your sweeping statements and the statements of many of the atheist here.
     
  20. airportkid

    airportkid Will Fly For Food

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    Wow.

    Just so we're clear, here, this is what you think is "counter to constructive discussion":

    ... religious belief:
    --- violates the United States Constitution and imposes a de facto religious test for public office as a significant population segment refuses to even consider voting for anyone solely on the basis of either atheism or being of the wrong sect,
    --- withholds medical attention and pharmaceuticals from people helpless to escape such bans, mostly children, on a belief that prayer is the morally superior treatment regimen,
    --- denies equal treatment under the law to segments of the population based on religious criteria said population is often not party to,
    --- attempts to impose religious dogma as a replacement for science education in the public schools,
    --- makes public pronouncements that natural disasters are divine punishment, thereby discouraging the flow of aid to victims from people who think aid is undeserved.

    Now. What about that list is false, exaggerated, or inappropriate?

    Get a grip, mister. That list is the very core of my arguments; it spells out, accurately, concrete ills wreaked on society by religiosity. To make the outrageous claim that setting down such a list is "improper" is equivalent to telling Martin Luther King to shut the hell up and quit offending people.

    The entire point of argument is to raise the discomfort level, not pat ourselves on the back and snuggle down asleep to the world.

    If it offends you, tough patooties. It is not the world's obligation to avoid ruffling your feathers. YOU made the choice to incorporate your belief as an important dimension of your self-identity, and that makes it impossible to discuss your belief without bruising you. You picked something to define yourself you haven't got any control over, a set of beliefs dictated to you by outside sources. Well, beliefs get hammered, yours, mine, everybody's. By weaving into your self-identity a particular set of prefabricated beliefs, instead of the capacity to derive belief generally, you feel pain every time those discrete beliefs get criticized. You're also reluctant to examine them because to do so opens them up to the possibility of being incorrect, or in need of revision.

    If you scrapped particular beliefs as essential components of your self-identity and instead self-identified with the ability to derive belief, which is infinitely more powerful, you wouldn't get offended when any particular belief gets criticized. You'd have the capacity to examine ANY belief objectively because its truth or falseness would no longer reflect on who you think you are; who you think you are would be someone able to revise and change and develop belief as new knowledge, new experiences, the sheer process of conscious life pushed them into new shapes.

    For example, I have REPEATEDLY asked you to CHALLENGE and REFUTE my particular beliefs regarding atheism. Atheism as a particular belief is NOT something I consider as part of my self-identity. But the ABILITY to become atheist, or to become religious, on the basis of thoughful examination, IS. To my mind challenge is vital - it's what inches us ever closer to whatever "truth" is.

    So it doesn't bend my nose out of shape to criticize atheism - I wish one of you would actually do it, instead of what really IS ingracious, inconsiderate and rude: actual personal attack.

    Unfortunately, because WHAT you believe, instead of the ability to form belief, is how you define yourself, anything critical said about what you believe gets construed as a personal attack, killing any chance of penetrating discussion. You wind up complaining that the list above is somehow "inappropriate", and refuse to even look at it.