Is the 2010 VW Golf TDI a threat to hybrid buyer market ???

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Main Forum' started by sluday, May 15, 2009.

  1. sluday

    sluday New Member

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    The VW Golf was just crowned World Car of the Year at the NY auto show. The VW Golf TDI is coming to north america in November. Vw has already launched a web campaign showing the myths of diesel cars and uses a Prius as a whipping boy when compared to the TDI car. It seems to me that VW is not worried about the higher mileage the Prius gets but emphasizes more on emissions, power, torque and handling in which the VW wins in every category. Also on this website, there is a sort of contest for TDI owners to post their top mpg's with picture proof of the stats. The leader so far has gotten 108 mpg on a 15 mile trip but this was probably done by coasting down a mountain road. The others have legitimate numbers of upper 50 and 60 mpg for 15-30 mile trips. I saw the new Golf at the NY auto show last month and the interior materials and exterior design are gorgeous.

    Do you guys think the new TDI will be a serious contender in the hybrid/gas sipping car market ?
     
  2. jprates

    jprates https://ecomove.pt

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    never mind... just having a terrible 14 hours work day... post deleted
     
  3. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    It may compete with 2010 Insight because I believe they are comparable in size and MPG.
     
  4. Steve Cebu

    Steve Cebu New Member

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    Well I looked at a 2009 Jetta TDI Sportwagen. It's a nice looking car and I am used to driving diesel's. I've owned diesels overseas. But VW is not reliable. I have owned more than a few VW's and even today the dealers are VW's worst enemies. There is a TDI forum where they discuss all the TDI stuff and while those people love their TDI's. The car do in fact have reliability issues. They use a lot of oil during an oil change and it has to be very specific oil as well. When you add in needing to change the iming belt at 60,000 miles which is very low and thrdealer said they usually replace the water pump at the same time... It seems like a lot of maintainance to me. :rolleyes:
    Sportwagens are tough to get right now so no discounts.
    For certain the TDI is a decent car but it in wagon form it's more than a Prius II and gets less mpg with higher priced fuel.
    Most TDI fans get the car serviced by independant mechanics or do it themselves. I don't have the time to do that stuff myself.
    Check out their forums and read the good and the bad.
    For me, I will get the Prius. If I was overseas I'd get a Toyota diesel like last time. :D
     
  5. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Emission rating (smog, not carbon) will reveal Prius is much cleaner.

    2010 owners (like me!) will be document real-world MPG data to counter the vague estimate claims they'll attempt to make.

    And of course, there's the reality of limited VW availability... something on the magnitude of 36 Prius for every 1 Golf TDI.
    .
     
  6. Prius 06

    Prius 06 Member

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    A friend of mine had a 05 GLI Jetta turbo. Not a TDI, but it still gave you it's L/100km in the dash of the car.
    At the time, I didn't care about millage/fuel econemy BUT still noticed a flaw in how it recorded millage.
    The car was a 6 speed standard. I noticed when you would sit at a light, or put the car in neutral and coast the current L/100km went to 0.0L/100km. I said to him, thats not accurate, since the engine is still running and therefore was still using fuel.

    Now, this was in 05 and also not a TDI, so I can't compare to how they are today.

    We looked at TDI's before we bought the Prius, and for one, I don't find VW having a very good reliabilty rating. Also, the maintence on them is expensive....not to mention oil changes.

    I think from now on I'd only go with a HYBRID, our Prius has been SO good that I'm hoping Subaru and Toyota bring out a Forester Hybrid!
     
  7. wvgasguy

    wvgasguy New Member

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    I would consider diesels as simply complementing the market. There is plenty of room for both and people that favor one over the other. However putting it in the VW does nothing to motivate me towards diesel. Now if Toyota had a hybrid diesel.....
     
  8. JSH

    JSH Senior Member

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    The 2010 VW Golf TDI and the 2010 Prius will appeal to different people. People looking for a comfortable yet sporty car that gets good mileage will prefer the TDI. Those that are most concerned about maximum mileage will buy the Prius.

    I have one of each, a 2003 Jetta TDI and a 2005 Prius. I like my TDI far more than the Prius because to me it is simply a better car even if it doesn't get quite the same fuel economy.

    Currently 30% of Jettas and 50% of Jetta Wagons sold in the US are diesels so I expect than VW will get plenty of people interested in the new Golf TDI.

    (The 2010 will be the 6th generation golf so both the 2010 Golf and 2010 Prius will be new models.)
     
  9. wvgasguy

    wvgasguy New Member

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    I had a new BMW 524td back in 1985. I enjoyed it but honestly can't remember the FE as I bought it just for the novelty.

    Just curious, does the new VW require the 15,000 mile fillup of what ever it is (urea?) BMW is using? I have been reading with interest the A3 introduction with the diesel. If I could get over my past experience with the TT I might get interested again. I love German interiors.
     
  10. hughh

    hughh New Member

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    Just curious, does the new VW require the 15,000 mile fillup of what ever it is (urea?) BMW is using? I have read they use a different system that does not require the fill up.

    From what I've heard, VW is selling just about every TDI they make in Europe. There is no urgency to increase the number of TDI's they sell in US. Their profit margin is much higher in Europe!
     
  11. sluday

    sluday New Member

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    No the VW does not need Urea. The TDI engine turns fumes into water vapor naturally and does not need Urea to help the process. You are correct about the TDI's selling like crazy in Europe. It is probably why VW wants to get them here because hybrids sell so well and they want a piece of the pie.
     
  12. hughh

    hughh New Member

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    Last I heard, Ed Wallace in his weekly radio show answered the question of limited numbers of TDI. He said VW stated they had problems producing enough engines for the American market. Being that their profits for each TDI sold in the American market are nowhere near what they are in the European market, it's understandable.
     
  13. JSH

    JSH Senior Member

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    The 2.0L TDI in the Jetta and Golf does not use urea injection. It uses a NOx catalyst instead.

    4th generation A4's had problems, no doubt about it, but the A5's have been much better. Both the Audi A3 and the 2010 Golf are on the A6 platform.

    The TDI maintenance really isn't anything special either. It uses a special diesel specific oil but that oil isn't very had to find. I get mine at Walmart. It cost more than regular oil but the change interval is only every 10K miles. I have 184K miles on my TDI and have spent $0.02 per mile for maintenance.
     
  14. Wooski

    Wooski New Member

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    There are 3 issues with diesal (as I see it):

    1. Particulates, diesals produce far more pollution than petrol engines do (please note - I'm not taking about CO2 here).

    2. In heavy traffic hybrids will always do much better. Though diesals have up until now done far better at high speed cruising on the motorway / highway. Hence the famous article in the UK about a BMW 520d getting better MPG on a trip from London to Prague than a Gen 2 Prius. It will be interesting how much better the 2010 does in this sort of real world test.

    3. Price of diesal compared to petrol in the UK (I know this is not an issue in all countries). Currently petrol is averaging 98p per litre and diesal 104p; approx 6% more. So a diesel has to give at least 6% better economy before you start seeing a difference in your pocket.

    I personally think that the EU will slowly outlaw diesal engines on pollution grounds. Already you are seeing the likes of BMW using fancy expensive technology to make their engines meet the latest pollution standards. Apparently Euro 5 engines are not as refined as Euro 4 and you can bet that Euro 6 will only be worse again. Eventually it wont be worth anyone's while.
     
  15. JSH

    JSH Senior Member

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    This will no longer be an issue when Europe adopts the Euro 5 standards in October. The allowable amount of particulates (PM) goes from 0.025 g/km to 0.005 g/km. That is the same standard as gasoline vehicles. (Starting with Euro 5 gasoline vehicles that use direct injection, currently gasoline cars are not tested for PM)

    For the Mark 6 Golf (Euro 5 emissions) :
    Diesel 2.0L TDI (140PS) puts out 0.0001 g/km PM
    Petrol 1.4L TSI (122PS) puts out 0.0014 g/km PM

    So the gasoline car puts of 14X the PM as the diesel. Not that it really matters, once we are down to 4 decimal places it is like counting grains of sand. My point, PM is no longer a issue for diesels.

    In the US we have had even stricter standards than even Euro 6 since 2008. The 2.0L TDI (140PS) sold in the US is very refined.
     
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  16. MSantos

    MSantos EcoAccelerometry

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    Hi all;

    It is good to have more options available especially when average folks are considering a new vehicle with good fuel economy potential and either don't know about hybrids or simply do not want one. Let's just say that late gen VW TDIs have quite a bit of FE potential that cannot be ignored. And, to have such an option available is even more important since hybrid vehicle production and proliferation is still dismally low; and by all indications will continue at too slow a pace for some of us. :(

    Anyway, I recently reviewed a 2009 VW TDI at the invitation of a VW dealer who desperately wanted a hybrid advocate to drive one for a while. So, I accepted the challenge and even though neither myself nor my wife would ever consider switching, I honestly have to admit that it is viable and compelling option for someone who does not share my goals and affinities.

    If you are interested in reading what a Clean Diesel Jetta TDI can do from the perspective of a "hybrid only" owner then feel free to read the review here:

    2009 Canadian Jetta TDI Sedan review

    A follow-up "Summer Time" review is already scheduled and I suspect the FE will be even better.

    As you will notice, the weather conditions for this test were not the most ideal but it still managed to deliver very good fuel economy. That in my experience, is still better than what the majority of the other 95% of vehicles in our roadways achieve. Sure it is not as clean as I wished it could be, but even on that department it is still a match for the average new car. And provided that you do not get locked in some stop-n-go traffic, a late gen TDI will always be the superior choice when compared to the average non-hybrid car.
    In my books, we need the clean diesel TDi's in our North American market. Period.

    Is the VW TDi tech a threat to the hybrid market?
    Sure it is. But given the big mess we're all in, that is not such a bad thing at all. Competition, innovation, lower prices, and a good dose of scrutiny... is good stuff for us all.
    Would I buy one?
    Heck, no. The Jetta TDI is no competition for the Prius since the TDI is often pegged as a highway car. But if the highway is the TDI's claim to fame then the hybrid to beat is the Civic Hybrid, not the Prius. Conveniently or not, I doubt VW's marketing will ever consider it. ;)
    Would I recommend one?
    Knowing what I know now? Yes. Especially if I see that a TDI would be a better match for a particular type of driver (even accounting the VW reliability aspect).


    Cheers;

    MSantos
     
  17. JSH

    JSH Senior Member

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    Nice review MSantos! I am a little surprised that the Canadian version doesn't has the trip computer that is standard on the US version. The instant and average fuel economy features are very handy. It is also good to know that the scangauge doesn't work with the TDI. I was thinking of buying one to use in my VW since it is an older model and doesn't have a trip computer.

    The lack of useful cupholders is a German thing. Germans strongly believe that one should not eat or drink in a car. If you want to do these things you should stop and visit a roadside cafe. (The cars I have rented in Germany did not have cupholders at all as of 2007)
     
  18. alevinemi

    alevinemi Junior Member

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    I think not.

    The main reason people buy the Prius is not fuel efficiency directly, but total cost of ownership. It was so in my case, and according to a few Toyota salesmen I have known. The Prius saves me about $300 a year on insurance, $1000 a year on gas, and if taken care of should pretty much never need repair.

    VW's reliability in general is crap. Near the bottom of JD Power surveys, Click and Clack on NPR don't like them, etc... This overrides fuel savings and increases cost of ownership A LOT. Many customers won't trust VW with a new technology.

    In contrast, the 04-09 Prius is established as quite possibly the most reliable vehicle ever built, with about half the problems per hundred of reliability mainstays like the Civic and Corolla. Customers, given Toyota's reputation, are more likely to trust a evolutionary '10 Prius vs. a totally new '10 VW.

    -->Adam
     
  19. sluday

    sluday New Member

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    Yes we all know about Toyota reliability but the VW tdi is not new in 2010. It has been around since last summer in the 2009 Jetta. Keep in mind that the 2010 Prius has a lot of tech features so the 2010 will be a great test to Toyotas reliability.:rockon::rockon:
     
  20. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Keep in mind that some of that tech is new to Prius, but not to Toyota. Newer hybrids got it sooner, simply because they were rolled out after the Iconic model.
    .
     
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