Israel Bombs 4 Story Residential Building

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 31 2006, 01:22 PM) [snapback]295176[/snapback]</div>

Yes you do focus - just re-read your posts. The fact that your are "NOT" sure says it all anyway...

Since when do you know what was or was not going on on that ship - or are you a conspiracy theorist?
HOw many American soldiers are KILLED in Action by friendly fire to this day?? Oh, I forgot, when Israel does it it has to be those damn Jews, I mean Israeli's - samething though. When Hezbollah kills HUNDREDS of Americans - actually THOUSANDS - and has targeted US - that you give a pass on and even DEFEND - damn I thought Israel was a better friend to the U.S. than Hezbollah - you obviously think differently. Your free to choose - obviously we choose differently - I still root for what I think are the good guys - Israel -- your good guys are the Hezbollah's. Cool.

Yes, one side has less blame - that side is the side that left Lebanon in hopes for peace and got dead soldiers and kidnapped soldiers (from your perspective a good thing obviously) and at some time had to defend itself.

The lebanese govt and army is... you can answer that one for me except you know they were put in place by the Syrians - you are too smart not to know that - and you obviously know Syria is no friend of Israel - and the lebanese army is non existant - but you know that too because the syrians dont want them to be - you are good but not good enough.

The fact that you seem to have come to the CONCLUSION that Israeli forces were responsible for that buildings collapse is ok - I would have waited a little longer in an attempt to seem fair and balanced - but that would depend on you being that. FUNNY thing if Hezbollah did it, i attach an article for your reading pleasure:


IDF says it may not be responsible for Qana deaths

By Amos Harel

The Israel Defense Forces indicated yesterday that it might not have been responsible for the deaths of at least 54 Lebanese, including 37 children , when a building bombed in an Israeli air strike in the village of Qana collapsed yesterday - but was unable to offer an alternative explanation.

There is an unexplained gap of about seven hours between the one Israeli air strike that hit the Qana building housing the civilians, which took place around 1 A.M. Sunday, and the first report that the building had collapsed, said the chief of staff of the Israel Air Force, Brigadier General Amir Eshel. Speaking at a press conference at the Kirya military complex in Tel Aviv last night, Eshel said that of three Israeli air strikes on Qana early Sunday, only the first strike hit the building in which the civilians were staying. The other two hit areas at least 400 meters away.

"I can't say whether the house collapsed at 12 A.M. or at 8 A.M.," said Eshel. "According to foreign press reports, and this is one of the reports we are relying on, the house collapsed at 8 A.M. We do not have testimony regarding the time of the collapse. If the house collapsed at 12 A.M., it is difficult for me to believe that they waited eight hours to evacuate it."


Eshel and Major General Gadi Eisencott, who heads the Operations Directorate in the General Staff, said Hezbollah had set up headquarters in Qana and that militants fired about 150 Katyusha rockets at parts of northern Israel, including Haifa and the Galilee panhandle, from Qana. Some of the rockets, the army said, were fired from the built-up areas of the village.

In the second IAF strike on Qana, which took place at around 2:30 A.M. Sunday, IAF planes bombed two targets located about 500 meters from the building that collapsed, and in the third strike, at around 7:30 A.M., three targets were bombed 460 meters away from the building, Eshel said. He told reporters that an analysis of photographs of the strikes, taken by cameras installed in the warplanes, showed that the four bombs dropped during the second and third strikes hit the intended targets, and that an IAF plane sent on a photo sortie in the afternoon confirmed that the intended targets had been hit.

The IDF has not released the aerial photographs, which Eshel said were being processed.

Addressing the possibility that the building may have collapsed because the IAF bombing triggered a delayed explosion of weapons stored inside, Eshel said: "I don't want to get into conspiracy theories. We will work diligently and collect every detail, so as to understand what happened there. I hope that we will know in the end, but I'm not sure. It's possible that we will never know what exactly happened there."

The IDF screened a video yesterday showing rocket launches from Qana, and said it chose the objectives in the village by analyzing the locations from which Hezbollah had fired rockets on Israel. However, the house that was hit had no direct connection to the rocket-launching cells. Nonetheless, IAF officials said that immediately after firing rockets at Israel, some Hezbollah cells hide in civilian houses in built-up areas in southern Lebanon.

IDF Chief of Staff Dan Halutz and other senior officers expressed regret yesterday over the deaths of the civilians. They said the IDF was not aware that the civilians were in the village and had expected them to leave Qana the week before, following Israeli warnings of an impending attack.

Eisencott blamed Hezbollah for the deaths, saying the group uses the civilian population as a human shield.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 31 2006, 01:39 PM) [snapback]295186[/snapback]</div>

Dudebermand, I got news for you.

Israel IS responsible for the building's collapse, just the same as Hezbollah IS responsible for every rocket being fired across the border. Both sides are guilty.

The fact that you think Hez is responsible for what they do and Isreal is not speaks volumes about you.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 31 2006, 12:04 PM) [snapback]295119[/snapback]</div>

At least we can now see your stripes too - thanks for the clarity.

Some answers for you - not that that matters - obviously.

Americans won by being on the side of rights and liberty and freedom - they did not go around killing the British soldiers wives and children although they could have -- that first belongs to the people you are rooting for.

There is a SIGNIFICANT difference for those that care about between terrorism and "guerilla tactics". If you do not want to see the difference than so be it. Ask the people of Madrid and London if they can see the differences - they probably can. But for you there is no difference - I guess that is as long as the targets are Jews/Israeli's.

And I am now concluding that YOU SUPPORT homocide bombings - having kids strap dynamite around their waist and entering a bus full of women and children and self-detonating -- COOL. And you support them invading a countries borders, killing its soldiers and kidnapping other soldiers -- COOL -- but if you check your facts that is an act of WAR. And so be it. If you support that type of behavior than you are responsible for the innocent people getting killed too.

If you want to educate yourself try reading the Geneva Conventions - Article 4 you can start with I believe from 1959's convention.

And please - please - educate yourself about the tactics used by the Americans in the middle 1700's - far from terror - they targeted British military personnel.

And thanks again for clarifying your points of view. Not that there were any doubts. I hope you have the fortitude to donate to their "charities" too - you can do so via the EU where they are not considered a terror organization yet -- use the SWIFT pathway - its safe now.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 31 2006, 01:42 PM) [snapback]295191[/snapback]</div>

U sure that Israeli bombs downed that building? Why the 8 hour time differential, why did they not search for bodies until 8 hours after the bomb hit? How many times have you seen ONE 500lb bomb topple - completely topple one building of that size?

You should start getting to the bottom of the facts instead of coming to rapid, self serving conclusions.

Who started this conflict? Not that I cant predict this answer....

Israel is responsible for what it does. The difference is they try to protect the innocent whereas your side tries to kill them. If Israel wanted to LEVEL ALL of Lebanon they could have done so in 1 second.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 31 2006, 02:26 PM) [snapback]295215[/snapback]</div>

Well, dude, I don't know about you... but if a bomb just took out a building and their were aircraft overhead... again, I'm probably not as smart as you, but I think I'd put 2+2 together and not run into the building that had just been leveled.

And I wish Hezbollah would go away. They started this, and nobody should be able to refute that. But are 2 kidnapped soldiers worth hundreds of civillian lives? A response was certainly called for... but flattening half the country, even the areas which had nothing to do with the response and aren't exactly friendly to Hezbollah, has gone too far. Does it bother you at all that Christian areas have been bombed? Do you lump all the groups together? Do you understand the nuances of middle east politics? I suspect you don't.

 

For a completely anti-Israel, blame the USA version of all of this:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/jul2006/qana-j31.shtml

"The Israeli massacre of Lebanese civilians, mainly children, in the village of Qana is a colossal war crime for which the United States government bears full responsibility."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 31 2006, 02:38 PM) [snapback]295224[/snapback]</div>

dude,

i would inform you that a single bomb would have trouble toppling an entire building. You can also comment on my other points about the inconsistancy of the Hezbollah version of this.

as to your second parargraph - how much would you let Israel do to defend itself?

nuances of middle east politics - something I have been studying for over 30 years - thanks. please dont jump to conclusions - you might find yourself on the wrong side of the facts - even your facts.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 31 2006, 02:55 PM) [snapback]295230[/snapback]</div>

Who were the Americans shooting at? British children and women??
Glad to see who your role models are.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wstander @ Jul 31 2006, 02:48 PM) [snapback]295226[/snapback]</div>

actually - just stay here and read the posts.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 31 2006, 07:28 PM) [snapback]295177[/snapback]</div>

Hmmm. I feel that your arguments are getting a little bit ad hominem. Not a good sign, you know?

I don't know what "DNC" is and I'm not interested in an opening in it for me.

Believe me or not, I am pro-Israel. I have been to Isreal two times, at the occasion of scientific conferences. I admire what they have build, and I fully agree that they have the right to do whatever it takes to defend their own. It's only that I'm not sure that what is going on now is serving Israel's long-term interests.
Partially because of my work, I have a good relationship with several members of the Jewish community in Antwerp (Belgium). Being non-jewish, it comes as close to friendship as possible.

And I fail to see why my scenario was pro-Hezbollah. In fact, I would say that that's a rather low insinuation. I was only explaining why it may not be that easy for ordinary people to get out of the way if Israel is ordering them to do so. It's not like you jump into your car and go for a little vacation to grandma's house. We are talking about leaving everything behind and abandoning the life that you tried to rebuild, without any idea how you will feed your children.

But that doesn't really make a difference, does it? I start to have the impression that you are not really interested in an actual exchange of ideas here.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 31 2006, 03:54 PM) [snapback]295262[/snapback]</div>

Is your degree in it? Do you have formal academic credentials in that area? Or are you like all RNC hacks who think that a 'kollege edukatsion' is a bad thing?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 31 2006, 04:25 AM) [snapback]294994[/snapback]</div>

Arab terrorists were murdering Jews in Palestine, under both Ottoman and British rule, decades before the United Nations voted to partition it and establish a Jewish state and an Arab state on that land.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vtie @ Jul 31 2006, 09:17 AM) [snapback]295128[/snapback]</div>

I could not have written this better myself.

Here, we diverge. Hezbollah must be disarmed from all its rockets and missiles. It is totally unacceptable that a non sovereign entity have the ability to attack a county with short, medium and long range missiles.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vtie @ Jul 31 2006, 09:17 AM) [snapback]295128[/snapback]</div>

The settlers can and will be relocated, just as they were when Israel pulled out of Gaza.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Jul 31 2006, 06:01 PM) [snapback]295349[/snapback]</div>

And Israeli militiamen were murdering British paratroopers in their sleep.

Neither side has behaved well since the beginning of this whole mess.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Aug 1 2006, 12:01 AM) [snapback]295349[/snapback]</div>

Hezbollah must be disarmed indeed. I think we all agree upon that. The big question is of course: how? I'm not convinced at all that the current approach will succeed. It's like Perez said recently: "I can see step 1, 2, and 3 of this war. But I have no idea what step 4, 5, and 6 will be". The only logical way to proceed this path is a new long-term occupation of southern Lebanon by Israel, and I don't think Israel is prepared to do this.

What Israel needs in the long run is a stable, powerful, preferably democratic government in Lebanon that recognises Israel's existence and sovereignty, and that can surpress by itself the terrorist organisations on its territory. A key ingredient to this is bring stability to the region, and inject a lot of money to help the country rebuilding. Some kind of Marshall plan. In a transition, international troops are necessary. Troops that have the right to act, no UN blue helmets. Troops that stay there for many years, and keep on actively chasing Hezbollah in their holes all the time. Perhaps NATO troops.

By invading the country time after time again, inflicting some pain on Hezbollah, and then leaving Lebanon alone and de-stabilised again, you are not going to proceed at all. The only thing you achieve is that you keep on having fertile ground for breeding more terrorists in a neighboring country that can't control anything.

 

<strike>I'm so sick of this discussion that I now advocate carpet nuking the whole lot of them, let God sort them out on the other end. </strike> :angry:

Hmmmmm, probably a bit hasty on my part. <_< Sorry.

Wildkow

 

I have to disagree that Arabs are always the cause of the problem... this is pure biased thinking. I've heard that there have been Jewish aggressions against Arabs too... and that it is not necessarily only the fault of one side or the other. Some of Ben Gurion's statements are rather shocking, as are those in the diary of the father of Zionism (the name escapes me at the moment). I heard that he (Mr. Gurion) pretty much stated which Palestinian/Arab towns/cities he wanted to overtake.

Now these are things I've heard and may be wrong... but a flat out denial without looking at the details smacks of bias to me.

And dbermanmd, things are not so clearcut (I give you a source you are more amenable to )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7T4DhDLPrY...ch=fox%20israel

Also, I saw a truly shocking image today of two Israeli female children writing some stuff on IDF shells... their parents being in the vicinity. Just saying that because people are usually saying Palestinian kids are really violent and whatnot.

That being said, I hope that the Israelis and Lebanese people have lasting peace as soon as possible. I am Pro-Israeli and Pro-Lebanese and Pro-Palestinian... I am bringing up points 'from the other side,' if you will.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Aug 1 2006, 04:50 AM) [snapback]295596[/snapback]</div>

The problem is that Israel not only illegally acquired nuclear weapons, but they placed them in submarines, and they are also suspected of having some sort of doomsday device which will destroy the entire planet if they can't have their way in the Middle East. And even if all of their nukes got directed at their neighbors, the nuclear fallout would be a major problem for the rest of us. So at the very least the first thing we'd have to do is take out their subs--but it would still be a major dice-roll. Some sort of biological weapon might work better, perhaps something slow and sneaky that could lower the birth rate, but that might mean putting up with the problem for another generation or two. Or perhaps there could be a way to force widespread intermarriage, but I don't know how.... (Of course the best solution would be for Israel to make friendly with its neighbors and compensate the Palestinians for the land stolen and damage done, but that is unlikely to ever happen...)

 

The Mufti and the Führer


By Mitchell Bard

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 1941, Haj Amin al-Husseini fled to Germany and met with Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Joachim Von Ribbentrop and other Nazi leaders. He wanted to persuade them to extend the Nazis’ anti-Jewish program to the Arab world.

The Mufti sent Hitler 15 drafts of declarations he wanted Germany and Italy to make concerning the Middle East. One called on the two countries to declare the illegality of the Jewish home in Palestine. Furthermore, “they accord to Palestine and to other Arab countries the right to solve the problem of the Jewish elements in Palestine and other Arab countries, in accordance with the interest of the Arabs and, by the same method, that the question is now being settled in the Axis countries.â€1

In November 1941, the Mufti met with Hitler, who told him the Jews were his foremost enemy. The Nazi dictator rebuffed the Mufti's requests for a declaration in support of the Arabs, however, telling him the time was not right. The Mufti offered Hitler his “thanks for the sympathy which he had always shown for the Arab and especially Palestinian cause, and to which he had given clear expression in his public speeches....The Arabs were Germany's natural friends because they had the same enemies as had Germany, namely....the Jews....†Hitler replied:

Germany stood for uncompromising war against the Jews. That naturally included active opposition to the Jewish national home in Palestine....Germany would furnish positive and practical aid to the Arabs involved in the same struggle....Germany's objective [is]...solely the destruction of the Jewish element residing in the Arab sphere....In that hour the Mufti would be the most authoritative spokesman for the Arab world. The Mufti thanked Hitler profusely.2

In 1945, Yugoslavia sought to indict the Mufti as a war criminal for his role in recruiting 20,000 Muslim volunteers for the SS, who participated in the killing of Jews in Croatia and Hungary. He escaped from French detention in 1946, however, and continued his fight against the Jews from Cairo and later Beirut. He died in 1974.

The Husseini family continued to play a role in Palestinian affairs, with Faisal Husseini, whose father was the Mufti's nephew, regarded until his death in 2001 as one of their leading spokesmen in the territories.

Notes
1“Grand Mufti Plotted To Do Away With All Jews In Mideast,†Response, (Fall 1991), pp. 2-3.
2Record of the Conversation Between the Fuhrer and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem on November 28, 1941, in the Presence of Reich Foreign Minister and Minister Grobba in Berlin, Documents on German Foreign Policy, 1918-1945, Series D, Vol. XIII, London, 1964, p. 881ff in Walter Lacquer and Barry Rubin, The Israel-Arab Reader, (NY: Facts on File, 1984), pp. 79-84.


ALL FOR OIL!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Subversive @ Aug 1 2006, 09:49 AM) [snapback]295654[/snapback]</div>

What land did Israel steal?
Israel make friends with its neighbors? How about the opposite way around?
How much more would you have Israel give up after they were willing to give up all of Gaza (Done that) 98% of the West Bank (going to do that anyway) and billions of $'s. Dont forget they gave back all of southern lebanon - so what else do you want them to give back?
How did Israel acquire nuclear weapons illegally?
Doomsday device?
Lower their birthrate? Intermarriage?
Why dont you just fire up the gas chambers?

You are right about Israels nuclear arsenal - you underestimate it though and the reach of their missiles. And you are totally forgetting about their laser based weapon systems. I imagine they would not have had to develop all of these if it were not for people who think like you.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Aug 1 2006, 10:50 AM) [snapback]295596[/snapback]</div>

Nuke who? All the Arabs? Or your opponents in this discussion?

Perhaps you need to stay away from internet from a while, it obviously doesn't do any good to your nerves.

By the way, how do you think god would judge those who initiated such a massacre, or even those who openly advocate it?

 

What in the world will come of this.
1)Israel almost certainly didn't bomb with the intent to kill civilians.Why would they? What would be their motivation? Now, did they know that bombing would kill civilians?Of course, but I'm sure they hoped to avoid heavy civilian deaths.No reason to think otherwise.
2)Hezbollah cowards??Kidding right? Are they insane, of course not.Many/most of them have very strong religious convictions; that isn't considered insanity.
3)Does Hez. fire from civilian areas with the intention of avoiding Israeli fire(because of the civilians,Israel might hold their fire)?Of course.Are they aware that their firing from civilian areas probably will cause civilian deaths?Of course! It is essentially win/win for Hez-if Israel doesn't fire back they get a free shot, so to speak.If Israel does fire back and kills civilians(large numbers of them frequently because of the nature of the weapons they have to use), they look like monsters in the world press.
What can be done?
1)The Arabs can admit/accept that they lost the 1948 war, and quit fighting/attacking.Not likely, but it might just end up happening someday in the distant future.
2)The Israelis can leave Israel.Even less likely.Israel is nuclear armed; there isn't any reason to quit/leave.
I don't see any solution in the near term.There was a chance after the 1973 war, but it just didn't happen.Sadat was killed......the will just wasn't there. Now all these Muslim groups have formed, and are getting ready to dominate the Arab/Muslim world. The huge downside to this is that with all the oil in that section of the world, there is a fair chance that they will eventually be able to make/buy a NUKE.
Everyone on both sides is absolutely convinced that they are on the side of the angels(literally in some cases).
I just don't see a happy ending.Luck,Charlie