Israel Bombs 4 Story Residential Building

In response to the general theme of the comments above:

First: Why is Israel decried because its highly targeted munititions attempt to minimize civilian casualties, while the Lebanese, Hezbollah same difference, lob unguided missiles designed to do nothing more than kill innocent civilians into Israel receive praise as resisting the evil occupation. What occupation? Israel pulled out 6 years ago, and the Lebanese have been firing rockets into Israel ever since.

Second: Hezbollah was probably, given passed conduct, firing its Katusha rockets from the roof of the building knowing full well Israel would bomb the site and the Hezbo's could use it as another reason to vilify Israel. They did the same thing to the U.N. post!

Hezbollah are not freedom fighters, its goal is the eradication of Israel and the Jewish people PERIOD. They have also spread as the seed organization (as a proxy for Iran) of radical islamization (not sure if that's a real word but it should be) of the entire western world. The Lebanese people still in the region that the fighting is occurring are likely sympathizers as Israel dropped many leaflets prior to its assault telling the Lebanese exactly what Israel was planning on doing. I don't see the Hezbo's doing Israel that courtesy before launching a few hundred rockets willy-nilly into the country!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Devil's Advocate @ Aug 2 2006, 01:46 PM) [snapback]296527[/snapback]</div>

You left "Full of nickel sized ball bearings to maximize the carnage" out of your description of the Hezbollah missiles.

 

What do you expect a man like that to do? How is he supposed to react seeing all the dead (incl children) around him? I've seen plenty of propaganda used by both sides... but at least in US media in the past it's been heavily biased in favor of Israel.

Israelis are doing things disgustingly too... the white phosoporous video I posted, for example. There is no moral justification for using phosphorous on Lebanese children!

 

The quotes in these videos (obviously, it's a one-sided video... but there is stuff one can take from it terms of perspective)... show how some think of the Arabs. I think there's a moral double standard going on here... the life of an Arab matters much less than the life of an Israeli.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHA2NLzrcYE&NR

 

[excerpts]

 

Excuse me for being cynical of what the IDF says... how the heck do you demolish a hospital?!?!?!?! And what do you suppose the IDF will say? "Uhh it's our fault..." I don't think so.

As to their excuse about warning residents... how the heck do you leave when the civilian infrastructure is demolished?! Preposterous!

Israel/Lebanon: Israel Responsible for Qana Attack

Indiscriminate Bombing in Lebanon a War Crime
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/30/lebano13881.htm

(Please note that this organization is not some anti-semitic nor anti-Zionistic organization that I suppose some of you might think it is... they are documenting the Hezbollah rocket attacks in Israel, too)

 

Word just in: two more hospitals demolished! Enough excuse making!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Aug 2 2006, 04:02 PM) [snapback]296607[/snapback]</div>

Why did you not quote from Human Rights Watch latest report on this tragedy which confirms 28 deaths as opposed to the original Hezbollah claims of 54?

Human Rights Watch - Israel/Lebanon: Qana Death Toll at 28

All the videos for which you posted links are of dubious origins. Do you have anything from a legitimate news site, even the pro Arab BBC and The Guardian? Surely if those were legitimate news items, these two fine news organizations would have published something about the Israelis attacking civilians with Napalm bombs.

At least I do not pretend to be free of bias.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Aug 2 2006, 04:17 PM) [snapback]296611[/snapback]</div>

Care to cite a source for the legitimacy of this claim?

There was a raid of a hospital (which was not destroyed, by the way) this morning that Hezbollah was using as their headquarters in Baalbeck.

CNN - Israeli military: Video proves hospital was Hezbollah HQ

And from ABC News:

 

You want to hear me say I'm pro-Lebanese and anti-IDF? You just heard it... I'm not hiding any bias. In the other thread I said that I no longer tolerate Israeli policies... I'm totally against what Israel is doing, but at the same intolerant of Hezbollah's actions (though from their point of view... they kidnapped the soldiers in order for a trade swap for Lebanese prisoners)... don't get me wrong... I disagree with their action... and a few mistakingly and stupidly pin me as being somehow pro-Hezbollah (and I am not saying that you're doing this).

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You quoted the newer one, what do you want me to say? I wasn't aware there was an update... so don't try to alledge that I intentionally used the old number. But 28 or 54... what difference does it make? They were attacked unjustly and indsicrimanetly... the report reflects that.



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Source: CNN, Anderson Cooper 360

I got a text message from my friend saying 2 hospitals demolished... apparently Hezbollah was firing rockets from behind the buildings (towards the northern part of Lebanon). Not sure if that includes the previous hospital or if he meant that the two hopsitals were recent.

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I never said they used Napalm... I posted a video in the other thread about it... the IDF is using disgusting weapons... meant to burn, char, and cause much pain to victims indiscriminately. The doctor said he thought the weapons used a 'white phosphorous' material meant to inflict pain.

http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.....326850891&par=

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion...pinionfront-hed

http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/188047.php

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wstander @ Aug 2 2006, 09:52 AM) [snapback]296357[/snapback]</div>

Good point, I might add that the Lebanese greater degree of guilt for this whole affair in that they elected known terrorist whose charter contained the total destruction of Israel and Jews where as the German Nazi party had no such thing and their agenda was hidden until they had total power. Shame on the Arabs that voted these thugs into power.

Wildkow

p.s. ditto with the Palestinian people.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Aug 2 2006, 09:54 AM) [snapback]296361[/snapback]</div>

Your right the Lebanese are much more guilty than the German people because the Lebanese did it with full knowledge that Hezbollah were terrorist and that their end goal was the total destruction of Israel.

Shame on them and anyone who defends them. :angry:

Wildkow

 

I will be working on a response to that fallacy.... just so no one claims "oh nobody responded and thus it's true now." I don't care that you think I should be ashamed... not a single bit... because there is no justification for the statement given to all the war Lebanon has experienced. Hezbollah was formed after Sharon's Matila (I probably got the spelling wrong on that) massacre of refugee camps... will have to get more info on that... but Hezbollah formed after I believe Israel's second occupation of Lebanon. I will definitely have to recheck but I think this is pretty accurate.

Please note that I don't care what you think of me (re: 'shame'). It's not going to affect my position at all.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Aug 2 2006, 09:56 AM) [snapback]296364[/snapback]</div>

Wrong, . . .

Does Hezbollah play an active role in the Lebanese politics?
Yes. After the 2005 elections, Hezbollah won fourteen seats in the 128-member Lebanese Parliament. In addition, Hezbollah has two ministers in the government, and a third is endorsed by the group.

Hezbollah did not disarm when it entered Lebanese politics, and experts say the group's new political involvement is not an indication that the group is becoming more moderate.
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9155/

Wildkow

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Aug 2 2006, 08:39 PM) [snapback]296672[/snapback]</div>

So 14 out of 128?

That's still ~10%. So all of Lebanon is being punished for ~10% of their politicians.

Seems fair to me.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Aug 2 2006, 05:19 PM) [snapback]296649[/snapback]</div>

I am still waiting for a link to a legitimate news source, however biased it may be. Your friend's SMS does not qualify as such.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Aug 2 2006, 05:19 PM) [snapback]296649[/snapback]</div>

Twenty six, to be exact.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Aug 2 2006, 05:31 PM) [snapback]296658[/snapback]</div>

Here you go again. Just as you did with your assertions, in your PM to me of a few weeks ago, that there was a massacre in Jenin.

The Sabra and Shatila massacre was carried out against refugee camps in September 1982 by Phalangists Lebanese Maronite Christian militias led by Elie Hobeika, who would later become a Lebanese parliament member and also a cabinet minister. No Israelis were directly involved, but an Israeli commission of inquiry determined that the Israeli military should have foreseen the events and named then Israeli Defense Minister Ariel Sharon as bearing "indirect responsibility" for the events.

Wikipedia® - Sabra and Shatila massacre

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Aug 2 2006, 05:19 PM) [snapback]296649[/snapback]</div>

Hmmmmmm, so they must have killed the other 8 for what purpose? Simply stating that Hezbollah has kidnapped two soliders, is nothing short of excusing their actions.

Wildkow

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Aug 2 2006, 01:40 PM) [snapback]296556[/snapback]</div>

(Arab will be used generically to refer to Arab's, Persians, Muslim's)

Actually the double standard, and diminished value of Arab life is absolutely correct. There is a double standard.

The Israeli's (and the US and most "civilized" nations) value the lives of its citizens.

Arab's (admittedly set by the extremists) set the value of their lives extremely low. Arabs kill one another en'mass and nobody, but maybe the US, ever expresses any outrage over it. Even other Arab states!!
The Arabs bomb mosques,
the Arabs use Arab human shileds,
the Arabs use Arab suicide bombers,

So yes, Arab life is worth less, because that's how they value it!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Aug 2 2006, 06:19 PM) [snapback]296692[/snapback]</div>

Accuracy in facts, history or rockets is not a big priority with terrorist, their supporters or their excusers.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Aug 2 2006, 05:51 PM) [snapback]296680[/snapback]</div>

Nope, kinda reads that way but the actual number is 23 or 36% of the Muslim side of parliament, and 18% of the total government. So almost 1/5th of a countries government is made up of genocidal killers. What is mentioned by the UN or the media? How America and Israel is a terrorist state. Pathetic. <_<

Wildkow

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Aug 2 2006, 04:17 PM) [snapback]296611[/snapback]</div>

Word just in on major media outlets, hospital raided is not a hospital but a training facility for Hezbollah. Numerous gun and weapons found in desks, offices etc.

Wildkow

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Devil's Advocate @ Aug 2 2006, 06:29 PM) [snapback]296705[/snapback]</div>

It may be set by the terrorist but it is condoned, supported or excused by the a great majority of the rest of the Arab world and never mention or rarely condemned by the rest.

Wildkow

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Aug 2 2006, 05:31 PM) [snapback]296658[/snapback]</div>

I'm curious about your avatar and your sig, are you advocating violence against others over spoken words?

Wildkow

p.s. sticks and stones

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Aug 2 2006, 09:19 PM) [snapback]296692[/snapback]</div>

Man, my friend saw it on CNN... he said Anderson Cooper reported (a very reliable reporter). I'll ask him about what exactly he meant by two hospitals. Don't judge just yet.

And there you go yet again miscontruing my statement. This is the EXACT PM conversation (minus names), so everyone knows:


(Me)
Thank you for the reasoned debate. I would like to continue the discussion, if you do not mind. I understand that you've got a busy life. I must ask questions... not to try and maintain a stronghold on a position... but to learn more about the situation... and in particular what you have to say about it. I had linked a story in which an Israeli Captain said to kill anything that moves... including three year old children (the statment went along those lines). Knowing your intellectual prowess, I believe that you had factored that into your response. How is an intent such as that defensible? What about the events that took place at the Genene (sp?) refugee camps? [/b]

I know that I can count on you for a reasoned debate with a mutual respect

Take care,
-----------------
(IsrAmeriPrius)

I am sorry, I missed the reference to the Israeli captain who ordered to kill anything that moves. That article is two years old. Those words, if they were said (The Guardian is not exactly bias free when it comes to Israel), were said in the heat of battle. Every large military organization has some rogue members, just like society as a whole. I am sure you are familiar with news of the retaliatory killings of civilians by U.S. Marines in Iraq and with accusations of rape of a 14 years old girl followed by the murder of her and her entire family by U.S. Army troops. That does not mean that such actions are condoned by the military. Like the actions of that one Israeli captain these are isolated incidents which are contrary to the rules of engagement.

In Jenine, even Human Rights Watch found no evidence of a massacre. http://hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/ . And again, mind you, these were the actions of soldiers who were caught in an ambush.

I am not saying that the IDF is always blameless, however, those incidents, which you used to brand it as a terrorist organizations, are exceptions to the rule.
-----------
Here was my thought process... initially I didn't even open the link... I was like oh ok so there wasn't a massacre there, and went on my way thinking that. :angry: :angry: :angry: I TOOK YOUR WORD FOR IT!!! So much for my admiration for your intellectual prowess and reasoned debating.
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From the same page, I got this:

"Sharon's and Eitan's instructions to the Phalangists emphasized that the Israeli military was in command of all the forces in the area. The Israeli military had completely surrounded and sealed off the camps and set up observation posts on the roofs of nearby tall buildings on September 15. The next day Israel announced that it controlled all key points in Beirut. The Israeli military met throughout the day with top Phalangist leaders to arrange the details of the operation. For the next two nights, from nightfall until late into the night the Israeli military fired illuminating flares above the camps."

"On the evening of September 16, 1982, the Phalangist militia, under the command of Elie Hobeika, entered the camps. For the next 36 to 48 hours, the Phalangists massacred the inhabitants of the refugee camps, while the Israeli military guarded the exits and continued to provide flares by night."

I say the Israeli military knew what was going... thus I call bull on your statement.

Wikipedia® - Sabra and Shatila massacre

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Aug 2 2006, 10:35 PM) [snapback]296726[/snapback]</div>

Bullshit.

http://www.cair-net.org/html/911statements.html

http://www.youtube.com/results?search=isla...s&search=Search

Note the quranic verse from the bottom:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdkY5EyVfXo...lam%20terrorism

Islam denounces terrorism:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEO7CfvIXoU...lam%20terrorism

 

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/012448.php

Wildkow,
Out of respect of debate... I would appreciate you provide links to information you post.



Broad and unbiased information about Hezbollah:

http://www.cfr.org/publication/9155/

Please also note what Hezbollah has done in terms of social benefits (hospitals and such)... hence probably why they were able to get It's more complicated than what Wildkow is proposing.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13823680/