Israel Bombs 4 Story Residential Building

hybridTHEvibe · Aug 7, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vtie @ Aug 4 2006, 05:12 AM) [snapback]297559[/snapback]</div>

All I did was give you one example, to show that those "equal rights" only have been acquired very recently in history, even for the Western world. There are many other examples of course. And, even now, there are some more subtle mechanisms that still hamper women in their ambitions.
Yes, we can be happy and proud on what we achieved in this respect. But that doesn't give us any moral superiority over countries that are still along the path. Most Arab countries are making progress, except Iraq, where ironically the war has reversed the clock for women's rights.

There are many other examples. 140 years ago, there was still slavery in America. 50 years ago, Germany was actively working on killing all Jews. We shouldn't brag too loud about our moral superiority.

Morality is not something you are born with, it's something that has do be developed in a culture, a bit like science. And it takes a lot of time. We have come a long way and still have a long way to go. Yes, perhaps the western world is currently slightly further down the path of moral development. So what? That should only be an incentive to help other parts of the world.

In the past, there has always been a fruitful exchange of ideas between the western world and the Arab world, on any field, including moral and philosofy. They are not barbarians like some people seem to think these days. Heck, they gave us our numbers.
OMG. Where to start? In fact, if you doubt this statement, the only thing I can recommend you is to start studying history a bit. Learn about the crusades. Horrible things happened then, they definetely weren't the romantic excursions as you see them in films. Learn about the inquisition in the Middle Ages. Everyone who had an opinion that differed slightly from the church had to die. Learn about colonialism. Learn about the unspeakable things Spain and the conquistadores have done in South and Middle America. They basically decimated the Indians. And then they have taken the freedom to import masses of slaves from Africa, and let them work and die in another continent. It all happened in the name of the church. And the moral justification for all this was that those people were "heathens", and hence inferior.
Believe me, whatever has been done in the name of Islam is peanuts compared to all this. The catholic church is nice and friendly these days, but they have come a very long way.
I'm getting bored with this whole discussion. What I will do is just re-summarise my point of view and then quit. You can do with it what you want.

* Israel is not the source of the problems in the Middle East. With it's leave-me-alone mentality, it advocates peaceful co-existence.

* The source of the problems are a small minority of extremists and terrorists, who are intolerant towards Israel. They hijack a large majority of tolerant civilians that want peace just as much as anyone else.

* The silent majority of people in countries like Lebanon and Palestina has been misleaded about the true face of terrorist organisations such as Hamas and Hezbollah.

* Targetted military action against terrorist organisations by Israel is justified and appropriate.

* The big problem is the extent of those actions, and the targetting. Colatteral damage should be avoided at all cost (although not always entirely possible). An Arab life is just as valuable as an American life. Destroying crucial civilian infrastructure such as power plants is wrong. Ultimate care should be taken that those countries are not further de-stabilised, because only the extremists benefit from this.

* The actions should stop as soon as reasonably possible, after which an international military control force should be deployed. A force that has the right to shoot and hunt terrorists.

* After the military actions, there should be a large Marshall-like plan to inject a lot of money in re-building the region, and give it an economical future. For example, Israel should play an active role in building an viable future for Palestina. It's in their own interest.

* Now that we are busy: the war in Iraq was the right idea, but the wrong target. The right idea in the sense that something should be done against proliferation of WMD and about terrorism. The wrong target because none of both was present or under development in Iraq. Right now, the U.S. has hundreds of thousands of troops tied into a long-term dirty mess. Troops that could be better used for other purposes. Countries like Iran form a much bigger threat. And of course, there is Pakistan. That's the real threat as far as nukes in extremists hands is concerned.

Interestingly, my point of view about the war in Lebanon doesn't differ that much from that of e.g. Dubya. Fortunately, it's mainly on irrelevant internet forums that people scream that Arabs are inferior and that they are all guilty and can be blasted away (or even nuked, like someone proposed on this forum). People with some vision on world politics know that weapons can't solve everything. Yes, the can achieve a certain goal, but they always have to be followed by structural changes if you want to change things on a long term. In contrast to what some people seem to think, the shape of world politics is determined around the table and not on a battlefield.

That's it. As I said, I won't continue this pointless discussion anymore.
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Wildkow and history? That's an oxymoron!!!

IsrAmeriPrius · Aug 7, 2006

Stage-Managed Massacre

Wildkow · Aug 8, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vtie @ Aug 4 2006, 02:12 AM) [snapback]297559[/snapback]</div>

Blah, Blah, Blah . . . (edited by Wildkow to remove the spurious one's blather)

That's it. As I said, I won't continue this pointless discussion anymore.
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Now its pointless?!? Now that someone has challenged your statements? LOL! I want some facts not your opinions show me or your statements are nothing but spurious scat.

Wildkow

vtie · Aug 9, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Aug 9 2006, 03:48 AM) [snapback]299934[/snapback]</div>

Blah, Blah, Blah . . . (edited by Wildkow to remove the spurious one's blather)

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You want to get offensive? You can have it your way.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Aug 9 2006, 03:48 AM) [snapback]299934[/snapback]</div>

Now its pointless?!? Now that someone has challenged your statements? LOL! I want some facts not your opinions show me or your statements are nothing but spurious scat.
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Yes, it's pointless to try to educate you. I gave you a few hints, but I'm not going to write a history course on Internet. You didn't challenge my statements at all. It takes more than a few silly insults to do that. It takes some intelligence.

I want to stop this discussion because it's utterly boring. If I want to have this level of conversation, I can go to any bar after 3 AM in the morning.

Mystery Squid · Aug 9, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Aug 7 2006, 01:22 PM) [snapback]299118[/snapback]</div>

Stage-Managed Massacre
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Why should this theory be believed any more or less than what it claims?

The Israeli's were pretty quick to apologize the next morning...

Wildkow · Aug 10, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vtie @ Aug 9 2006, 01:24 AM) [snapback]300094[/snapback]</div>

You want to get offensive? You can have it your way.
Yes, it's pointless to try to educate you. I gave you a few hints, but I'm not going to write a history course on Internet. You didn't challenge my statements at all. It takes more than a few silly insults to do that. It takes some intelligence.

I want to stop this discussion because it's utterly boring. If I want to have this level of conversation, I can go to any bar after 3 AM in the morning.
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BaHaHahAhahahahaha another liberal sent scurrying for cover when ask to supply facts to back spurious statements. So long!

Wildkow

Mirza · Aug 11, 2006

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wdwk1dp-uU

IsrAmeriPrius · Aug 11, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Aug 11 2006, 09:55 AM) [snapback]301543[/snapback]</div>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wdwk1dp-uU
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Truth in advertising:

[Excerpts]

Galloway is perhaps best known for his vigorous campaign to overturn economic sanctions against Iraq, and for his visits to Saddam Hussein in 1994 and 2002. In October 2003, he was expelled from the Labour Party when a party body ruled that he had brought the party into disrepute over the 2003 invasion of Iraq, when he called the Labour government "Tony Blair's lie machine", and stated that British soldiers should "refuse to obey illegal orders."

His support for the Palestinian cause began in 1974 when he met a Palestinian activist in Dundee; he converted the rest of the Dundee Labour Party which flew the Palestinian flag over the City Chambers. In 1977 he became a Labour Party organiser, and by the early 1980s was the chair of Labour in Scotland. He twinned the city with Nablus in 1980.

He was married from 1979 to 1999 to Elaine Fyffe, with whom he has a daughter. He married Dr. Amineh Abu-Zayyad in 2000.

In 1997, Galloway launched a newspaper, East, largely bankrolled by the Government of Pakistan, focusing on Pakistan and promoting a pro-Bhutto position. He also worked with the National Lobby on Kashmir, promoting the claim to independece of the Kashmiris from India and as promised in a long pending UN resolution. When Bhutto's government fell, Galloway met with the new Government and wrote a series of letters asking them for funding, which he ultimately obtained.

In a 28 March 2003, interview with Abu Dhabi TV, Galloway said Tony Blair and George W. Bush had "lied to the British Air Force and Navy, when they said the battle of Iraq would be very quick and easy. They attacked Iraq like wolves...." and added, "... the best thing British troops can do is to refuse to obey illegal orders." The latter remark briefly led to suggestions that he might be prosecuted for treason under the Incitement to Disaffection Act, 1934. His most controversial statement, which led to a Sun headline, "MP blasted over 'kill Brits' call", could be read as inciting attacks on British forces in Iraq: "Iraq is fighting for all the Arabs. Where are the Arab armies?".

Galloway has a reputation as a fiery left-winger and advocates redistribution of wealth, greater spending on welfare benefits, and extensive nationalisation of large industries. He approves Scottish independence and supports the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament.

He has attracted most attention for his comments on foreign policy, taking a special interest in Libya, Pakistan, Iraq, and the Arab-Israeli conflict. In an interview with the Guardian, Galloway stated "I am on the anti-imperialist left... If you are asking did I support the Soviet Union, yes I did. Yes, I did support the Soviet Union, and I think the disappearance of the Soviet Union is the biggest catastrophe of my life. If there was a Soviet Union today, we would not be having this conversation about plunging into a new war in the Middle East, and the US would not be rampaging around the globe."

Israel and Hezbollah Conflict

On August 6th 2006, in an interview with Sky News, Galloway reiterated his support for Hezbollah, asserting that its actions in capturing two Israeli soldiers were justified on the grounds that Israel occupied a part of the south of Lebanon for 18 years, and continued to do so to this day. He claimed that thousands of Lebanese have been illegally imprisoned in Israeli "dungeons" and said that, in the eyes of a large portion of the world, it is Israel that is committing acts of terror; not Hezbollah.

He visited Iraq several times and met senior government figures. His involvement caused certain critics to deride him as the "member for Baghdad Central". In 1994, Galloway faced some of his strongest criticism on his return from a Middle-Eastern visit during which he had met Saddam Hussein "to try and bring about an end to sanctions, suffering and war." At the meeting, he reported the support given to Saddam by the people of the Gaza Strip and infamously ended his speech with the phrase "Sir: I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability." Additionally he said "hatta al-nasr, hatta al-nasr, hatta al-Quds" (Arabic for "until victory, until victory, until Jerusalem"). When later pressed to explain why he would make such a speech, he said that it was for the benefit of the Iraqi people, collectively.

WikipediaÂ® - George Galloway[/b]
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Mirza,

If you want to have any semblance of credibility, you must be more discriminating in your choice of sources.

hill · Sep 10, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 30 2006, 11:19 PM) [snapback]294867[/snapback]</div>

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/30/...main/index.html

Excerpt:
1. I think the Israeli's are going to create a helluva lot more terrorists.

2. With crap like this, they're quickly losing sympathy/face across the globe.

3. It's 2006, and the Israeli's have, arguably, one of the best military and intelligence infrastructures on the planet, and they made a "mistake" like this?

Counterpoint:

Ok, let's assume for a moment Hezbollah was using this particular building as cover (which doesn't appear to be the case, given the quote/situation). Even so, is there no better way? Is 60 civilians/37 kids acceptable "collateral" damage?

Personally, I don't think they give a hoot, or at least, more accurately, they care as muh about civilians as Hezbollah does. I do not know, if Isreal keeps this so cort of thing up, they risk a real Arab coalition rising against them a-la '67..... h34r:
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I never understood how non-students of history (which shows how so much of europe ... not just Nazi Germany and other countries for the past 2K years, as well as the former and modern KKK and much of the rest of our nations absolutely despise jews) could attempt to judge a county's policies when that country is surrounded by countries that have a mission statement of wiping out their very existence ... and in fact, have tried to do so on various and sundry ocasions.

So, when did 'war' get so 'sanitary', anyhow? By its very nature, the war equasion necessarily means folks in general die. A lot of folks don't like war, but few actually get out and really DO anything about it ... including my self. Before we point the sanitary war process finger over a building, here and there, regarding any another country, we'd do better to compensate all the folks who were incenerated (the lucky ones who fried instantly, and the ones who agonized for decades of cancer) over Nagasaki and Hiroshima, or give back the U.S.A. to native americans for that matter, since we are so high and mighty and know how war things ought to go ... right?

As for 1967? I missed that ... you know ... how Isreal ticked off their neighbors, which justifiably caused them to get invaded ... again.

Israel Bombs 4 Story Residential Building

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Israel Bombs 4 Story Residential Building

hybridTHEvibe New Member

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