It's always humorous to hear the right complain that no good news ever gets reported from Iraq.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(psychojerm @ Dec 22 2006, 10:20 AM) [snapback]365632[/snapback]</div>

Wow well said, too bad more than half the people here or in the US that are being brain washed by CNN, MSNBC & other local liberal media won't believe unless they see it for them selves in person..

(you cant show them video as they will claim its been doctored and is fake).... They would rather follow from the couch and via the paper with the facts & figures and argue about it on the web & at work....

No one wants to hear the good news, all they care about is the gloom & doom and how bad they can make someone look that they do not like. Like Bush..

My hat is off to you sir for going over and coming back and serving your country , protecting us from terrorists and the fear they bring.!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(psychojerm @ Dec 22 2006, 10:20 AM) [snapback]365632[/snapback]</div>

Ahhhh, people are always killing each other...is this what GWB means by "we're not winning and we're not losing?" Our presence in Iraq doesn't have an effect, one way or the other?

Also, my boss doesn't ask me how I want to run the company; I don't think we should be asking our soldiers.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Dec 22 2006, 04:59 PM) [snapback]365797[/snapback]</div>

CNN as liberal media? Now that's funny.

No, some of us read books. And a wide variety of sources, so we can cut through the propaganda and misinformation that what you term "the liberal media" propagates. When you read the primary source information, it often gives a different picture than that presented otherwise.

I had a friend working with the IMF in Iraq. They didn't go anywhere. He'd worked in plenty of other developing countries -- Turkmenistan, Kazahkstan. Iraq was a different experience. From a letter he emailed in May 2005:
When I arrived in Baghdad in December 2003, we were picked up at the airport in soft skinned vehicles to take us to the Green Zone on the BIAP road. Then we were taken back and forth to the airport in a single armored car with no guards. A couple of months later, we were driven to the airport in two car convoys with armed guards. A few months after that, we were using armored cars, with four armed guards, for the convoys to and from the airport. And this was always done during the day. Now we are only allowed to go to and from the airport in the middle of the night with heavily armed military protection and Apache helicopter escorts. Somehow, it doesn’t feel like we are winning this war.

I'm sure psychojerm has many interesting stories to tell about Iraq that may well be under-reported. But I won't abide nonsense stating that Iraq is no more dangerous than DC. That's just ridiculous.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MegansPrius @ Dec 22 2006, 04:16 PM) [snapback]365807[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, haven't you ever heard of the Communist News Network? :lol: :lol:

I wonder what would happen if all the soldiers spoke out on the conditions in Iraq ( how we where doing, how we are percieved, what is the common feeling of our presence there)... :mellow:

Your right Pinto, the left would prefer the soldiers keep quiet so the truth of whats really happening there can be buried. So the reported perceptions of whats happening there can continue to snow ball.

I dont tell the boss how to run the business either, but I do talk & ask questions to the employees. Now on the other hand there sure are a lot of disgruntaled lefty citizens that want to speak to the boss and tell him how to run the USA business..

:huh: Imagine if they didnt ask or make a big stink.. (Boy it sure is quiet in here)! But that will never happen.. :lol:

Note smileys added to show the mood off tthee (damm shuttle just came in) :blink: reply.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(psychojerm @ Dec 22 2006, 08:04 AM) [snapback]365644[/snapback]</div>

Not quite.

5,948,800 according to Google.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(psychojerm @ Dec 22 2006, 05:36 AM) [snapback]365610[/snapback]</div>

Thanks for the perspective. The servicemen I have talked to were supportive of the mission there, and all felt that we should remain and finish the job. That does not mean that they were complimentary of the leadership, or even of the SecDef or the President. Some felt we should have been more aggressive, and some felt that we should have retained more of the Iraqi military and let them restore order early on. And they all said the news stories from the media were not anywhere close to reality.

But I haven't talked to any Guard folks lately (I live in a Navy town, so I see more active duty folks). So it is interesting to get an opinion from someone other than a professional soldier.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MegansPrius @ Dec 22 2006, 04:16 PM) [snapback]365807[/snapback]</div>

In the beginning in 2003 the armored cars hadn't arrived yet. by early 2004 armored cars were available
for the most part, and the violence wasn't in Baghdad but in other parts, primarily around the larger power plants, so one armored vehicle without guards was actually the safest way to get back and forth from the Green Zone to the airport. it didn't stand out and was still safe. a few months after that the violence had moved to baghdad and the insurgents were focusing on that area used frequently from the green zone to the airport, so two armored cars were used with guards. two armored cars so that if one went down there was a backup, and the guards for apparent reasons. Eventually the insurgents started focusing heavily on that road, and if you saw the road you would understand why it's unable to be secured. so with the escalating number of attacks and the increase in traffic back and forth, they put together a military operation during curfew hours just like your friend said.

see the difference is that you read that story and see something bad. i read it and see a response to the situation which I was in, and know for a fact that the changes, and even the earlier stages that were given, were the best at the time. When I first got there I was driven around in a soft skinned vehicle only with just Iraqi guards in the car.

I'm glad to see the story above because that's what I did. I managed a fleet of armored vahicles, and chances are your friend was riding around in some of the vehicles that we provided. Security is always changing. If you don't know what's really going on then sure it can look bad, but if you do know, then you can see things as they are.

The part of the story you missed was how when things were being ramped up in Baghdad, they were being slacked off in other areas. Areas that were required to go in armored convoys at one time were riding in simple soft side vehicles because of the change in dynamics.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Dec 22 2006, 04:15 PM) [snapback]365805[/snapback]</div>

that's completely wrong. If you work for just about any decent company in the US there are value creations programs, "suggestion box" type places to give your inputs, and various other methods, including rewards, for getting the regular workers opinion to senior management.

Your boss doesn't come and sit down with you directly no I'm sure, but if your Boss isn't listening to the employees and what they are having problems with, what they like, and what they think the best way to do things is, then that company won't last long.

 

i think those like burrito's and similar ilk should be shipped to Iraq to find out for themselves.

Preferably with an "Allah Sucks" t-shirt.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Dec 26 2006, 09:02 AM) [snapback]366666[/snapback]</div>

:huh: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Dec 26 2006, 06:13 PM) [snapback]366887[/snapback]</div>

Oh Pot to Kettle.....

I'd go, but they need me to drive the SHORT bus... :lol:

 

Just ran across this article on yahoo.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070102/ap_on_...raq_corrected_2

16,273 Iraqi civilians, soldiers and police died violent deaths in 2006


the last comparable report i could find for the US was for 2004 and we had 49,269 violent deaths... http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5526a1.htm

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(psychojerm @ Jan 2 2007, 01:34 PM) [snapback]369609[/snapback]</div>

Your CDC data includes homocides and suicides and accidental gun deaths. Playing games with statistics to distort the picture doesn't help anybody. Suicides are the greater portion (about 32,439) of that 49,000 figure you cite. For US suicide rates see here: http://www.suicidology.org/associations/10...004datapgv1.pdf. Accidental gun deaths for 2003 were 762 per the NRA http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=120

And, if you don't look too hard (really, all you have to do is google us crime statistics), you can find FBI's crime statistics at
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_01.html

The most recent year with complete data is 2005.
US Population 296,410,404
US 2005 murders 16,692

Iraq Population: 26,783,383
murders: 16,273

So Iraq, a country with less than one tenth of our population just had an equal number of murders. That doesn't seem like good news.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MegansPrius @ Jan 2 2007, 01:09 PM) [snapback]369621[/snapback]</div>

What makes it even worse is that we're not...ummmm....exactly reputed to be an non-violent country when it comes to homocide rates (or anything else, for that matter)...


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Dec 22 2006, 05:28 PM) [snapback]365833[/snapback]</div>

Question: Why do you think that soldiers are any less "brainwashed" by the government, than "lefties" are by corporate newsmedia?

BTW, please don't lump me in with the "lefties" ...unless you define what the "lefties" are being "lefties" about.

--Actually, I'm quite conservative financially, for one.
--Two, I favor a strong, independent America (but this has more to do with changing our behaviour as citizens and reclaiming our destiny, not "surging" the military and confronting others without first confronting ourselves).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Dec 20 2006, 02:31 PM) [snapback]364730[/snapback]</div>

Anyone who expects good news to come out of a war is perhaps unclear as to the realities of war. Especially one that we started (excuse me, Bush started) under false pretenses where the only winners are the defense contractors and a war that we cannot win where there is no end in sight with a steady stream of fatalities; loss of life and limb and a total loss of respect from the rest of the world. Think of all of the mothers out there in the heartland of the U.S. who will never see their children again or children who will never see their fathers or mothers again. If you expect good news to come from such a nightmare, you're delusional or, at best, naive.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MegansPrius @ Jan 2 2007, 01:09 PM) [snapback]369621[/snapback]</div>

you are assuming that the statistic given from the Iraqi government was only murders aren't you? It stated that those were the number of "violent deaths". So I looked up the number of violent deaths for the US. now you are throwing out most of that number and just limiting it to homicides?

How many of that number for Iraq was accidental deaths? How many were suicides? Do you know?

If you don't, then you can only compare the number of violent deaths in one country to that in another. so it's either the number of homicides in Iraq to the number of homicides in the US, or the number of violent deaths in Iraq to the number of violent deaths in the US. you can't try and compare homicides in the US to violent deaths in Iraq. that's apples to oranges...

talk about twisting the statistics...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MegansPrius @ Jan 2 2007, 01:09 PM) [snapback]369621[/snapback]</div>

The way I see it is a country in the middle of a hostile region, with a war going on inside it's borders, only had as many murders as a peaceful country. sounds like much better news than most would expect from a war-torn country.

The biggest difference is that in the US your 16 thousand murders were nearly 16 thousand different instances, with a select few being multiple homicides. In Iraq your deaths were from warfare and bombs, with probably 30 people dying at each instance on average.

so if you take 16,273 and assume that 30 people died in each instance on average then you have 542 instances.

we'll say that only 2/3 of the homicides in the Us were unique instances, which is far short of reality, but that leaves 11,127 instances.

now, compare those numbers and Iraq has far less homicidal occurrances per individual instances than does the US on a population basis don't they?

Iraq has 9.03% of the population of the US. so to be equal to US homicidal instances Iraq would have just over a thousand cases.

The numbers used here only give them 542, meaning they have HALF of the homicidal instances per capita than the US. So you could cut that death rate per instance down to 15 before you even came close to matching the numbers to that of the US per capita.
just doesn't look quite the same that way does it???

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(psychojerm @ Jan 2 2007, 05:06 PM) [snapback]369728[/snapback]</div>

I'm confused; what you're saying is that things in Iraq are lots *better* than it would appear?

Perhaps you should advance rearward to a more defensible position...?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jan 2 2007, 05:18 PM) [snapback]369733[/snapback]</div>

that's exactly what I'm saying, and I would know, as I said I spent nearly a year and a half there. unless you have been there yourself I wouldn't expect you have a better understanding of the situation would you?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(psychojerm @ Jan 2 2007, 06:06 PM) [snapback]369728[/snapback]</div>

No dude, you're the one with the agenda doing the twisting. Including 32000 suicides from a country of nearly 300 million to bump up your comparison is lame. I mean, how much internet seaching did you have to do before you happily chanced upon a CDC report with your happy phrase of "violent deaths?" But sure, let's compare VIOLENT DEATHS. That, according to the Brookings Institute, bumps the Iraq civilian deaths from January through ONLY October of this year to 28000. http://www.brook.edu/fp/saban/iraq/index.pdf

Or, if you want to find Iraqi suicide rate info, you can find it here. http://www.pensitoreview.com/2006/12/28/ir...ss-of-violence/
The Iraq Ministry of Health said that about 20 people have been committing suicide each month since January...Hamza said that he found that 70 percent of suicide victims chose to poison themselves using rat and cockroach poison. Others either shot or hanged themselves.
So 20 x 12 = 240. Golly. Guess we better subtract those suicides. That leaves:
US murders 16692
Iraqi murders 16233.

You're creating a straw man with your "let's include US suicide deaths" and I guess it makes you feel better. Same with your 542 bombing instances -- I mean, there's about 1000 TOTAL instances since the war began, not this year. You can find that figure on page 11 of the Brookings Institute Iraq report. And given that every damn day they're finding people executed with a bullet to the back of the head, ascribing all the deaths in Iraq to multiple fatality bombins seems curious. But I guess it's a way you can do enough gymnastics to make your numbers work. Heck, let's include people injured by car crashes. Let's include children who drown in swimming pools. I mean, there has to be some way to make Iraq look good if we all work hard enough to delude ourselves.
The World Health Organisation (WHO) office in Amman, Jordan, has said that it does not have statistics on suicide cases in Iraq, but that it was not surprising to see such high suicide numbers considering the circumstances the country is living under.
I mean, we all know Iraq is perfectly safe.
BAGHDAD - Police found 40 bodies in Baghdad in the past 24 hours, including 15 in one place near the Sheikh Maa'rouf cemetery in western Baghdad, an interior ministry source.--Reuters Jan 1 2007

By the way, the Brookings Institute uses the low numbers based on Iraq Body Count.