1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Japan's First hydrogen station integrated with gas station open (2013/4/19)

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by spwolf, May 20, 2013.

  1. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2011
    3,938
    1,351
    28
    Location:
    Florida
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Two
  2. Scorpion

    Scorpion Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2013
    440
    162
    2
    Location:
    Lincoln, NE
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    That's my understanding as well. Making hydrogen at a 'refinery' and shipping it to gas stations via tanker truck is extremely inefficient, since liquid H2 is 1/4 the density of gasoline. The most efficient way would be for the gas station to have an on-site reformer hooked to its natural gas line, but as you mentioned, why not just use nat. gas directly, or methanol? It takes 2 gasoline-equivalent gallons (GEGs) of natural gas to make 1 GEG of hydrogen. Even if fuel cells are twice as efficient, a cheaper ICE running on nat. gas is the cheaper option. The only way it would work, IMHO, is if the gas station had a "CO2-out" pipeline and was able to capture CO2 from the reforming process. That would make it carbon-neutral, but I still don't see how the economics of a FC work out compared to an ICE, except in maybe big-rig trucks, which spend their entire life on the highway, and can amortize the cost faster than your typical passenger car driver.
     
  3. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    19,865
    8,168
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2018 Chevy Volt
    Model:
    Premium
    Cheaper is a major concern, sure. But would you find cost to be the biggest hurdle? What if they installed a hydrogen filling station within a few blocks of your place.
    From only two Augusts ago;

    How safe is hydrogen? Filling station explodes [w/video]

    How safe is hydrogen? Filling station explodes
    My favorite part of the Hydrogen spin in the article below is that this is the only explosion they've had - after 1.6 million miles driven by their test fleet. Let's see:
    128 million U.S. commuters
    25 miles average daily commute
    3 BILLION, 200 million miles DAILY commuted.
    Divide 3 billion,200 million miles into "only" one EXPLOSION every 1.6 million miles
    So ... does that mean "only" (over) TWO THOUSAND hydrogen explosions every day?
    Well to be fair, lets say only 10% of commuters were hydrogen. That's only 200 stations exploding (not counting cars in collisions) I can live with that.
    o_O



    .
     
  4. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,083
    11,540
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    That's a little alarmist.

    Natural gas is also quite explosive. Should we stop the expansion of NG trucking that is starting now?
    When battery fire FUD reared its head here, it was commonly pointed out a gallon of gasoline has more energy than a stick of dynamite. All energy in concentrated form have risks involved in handling.

    The cost of a hydrogen gas network is enough to keep most Americans from supporting. There is no need for Hindenburg hysterics.
     
  5. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    19,865
    8,168
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2018 Chevy Volt
    Model:
    Premium
    Agreed - hydrogen's explosiveness is not hysteria. It's explosive nature is just a comparative thing. Yep .. people burn to death in gasoline/auto fires every day. CNG is explosive too. The web article/vid's most valuable point was meant to be comparative. Comparing hydrogen (besides the crazy cost) to other burning fuels;

    #1 - you don't have to store gasoline at 10,000Lbs of pressure to make it work/burn. It is the vapor (gasoline/air) where the fire/explosiveness happens. That's why we've transitioned from carburetors to fuel injected gas ... it makes for better vaporization. The thing is, 10,000Lbs makes for even better vaporization, as the hydrogen refinery explosion PARTLY shows. The IMPORTANT point of illustrating the hydrogen explosion is the raw fact of frequency. One explosion for a paltry 1.6 million miles of driving for the GM test fleet.

    #2 - Hydrogen is 10x more flammable than gasoline, and 20X more explosive - just by the very nature that it is already a vapor (unless liquefied ... which is cold enough to freeze air, & clog solenoid valves).

    #3 - CNG isn't as prone to leak as hydrogen (nor does it break down its delivery/plumbing as hydrogen does), because hydrogen molecules are the smallest molecule of all. Being the smallest molecule, and requiring huge volumes of pressure is why hydrogen readily leaks from its vessels- to the tune of 1% per day.

    That is not alarming - and it's not hysteria. It just is what it is. We no longer build Hindenburgs. Not because of big fireball drama ... but because of the likelihood of their frequency.

    (below is where I got my 'hydrogen fun-facts' for those interested)
    The Myth of the Hydrogen Economy

    .