John McCain: "The United States is a Christian nation"

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Sep 30 2007, 10:01 PM) [snapback]519709[/snapback]</div>

Mormons are Christians.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tchou @ Oct 1 2007, 12:42 AM) [snapback]519734[/snapback]</div>

The swearing in ceremony doesn't require a Bible; you can choose any book, or no book. At least one President didn't use a Bible, but I can't recall which one ... seems to me it was before the Civil War (Madison?). Same with our other elected officials, and one Congressman was sworn in with a Koran this year (he is Muslim).

Most of the more overt religious things we argue about are fairly recent; "under God" wasn't added to the Pledge of Allegiance until the 1950's, and "In God We Trust" wasn't on the money until something like the early 1900s.

There is a lot of evidence that the founders were steeped in religion, studied the Bible as a standard text, participated in public prayers and promulgated official days of thanksgiving and prayer. All of the early colleges required things like Hebrew as a foreign language so as to better study the Jewish scriptures, etc. Many of them were deeply religious but, like Mother Theresa, expressed doubt about certain doctrines (unitarianism was very much a topic at the time). Almost all of the founders were orthodox members of their churches, and even the ones we wag fingers at (like Ben Franklin) are buried in consecrated ground with full church honors.

There is a reason America is the first nation to dis-establish religion, and yet may be the most religious nation on earth. The problem is that everyone argues about it without really shedding any light on the issue. Of all the books I've read, there's only one that takes a dispassionate look at the issue and really examines it without hyperbole, and its written by a great journalist Jon Meacham, an Editor at Newsweek. It is American Gospel - God, the Founding Fathers, and the Making of a Nation.

I've been reading about this issue for about 15 years, and Meacham's book is the first to capture what I think the truth is, that America has a sort of "public religion" that is a common expression of faith that, until the modern time, united rather than divided people of different faiths. It is well worth the read.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Oct 1 2007, 05:12 PM) [snapback]520064[/snapback]</div>

They are Christians ... they have "Jesus Christ" in the name of their church. But I am interested in why you believe you know what a true Christian is, and how you come up with pacifism as a requirement. It never has been, even for the Roman soldier that Jesus talked to.

And as to "zero archaeological remains" ... you are not suggesting that lack of evidence proves a negative are you?

 

This is the sort of thing that McCain's statement only aids and abets. That the newspaper published it as (1) worthy of attention and (2) in good faith is what's significant, not that this particular specimen was actually a hoax.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

That reminds me of the time I was talking with a Mason. He said to join them, you had to swear on a Bible that you're not an Atheist. When I tried to point out why that was a futile gesture, he just didn't get it. When I asked him, "What about Agnostics?", and he said, "Nope, just Atheists."

*sigh*

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Oct 1 2007, 08:27 PM) [snapback]520129[/snapback]</div>

The entire thrust of Jesus's teaching is love, generosity, self-negation, non-hostility, etc. This is not merely pacifism, it is the much deeper and more profound philosophy later called Satyagraha by Ghandi; a concept that goes beyond pacifism.

Lack of evidence does not prove a negative. But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and for this particular claim, the Mormons have no evidence whatsoever. Such an advanced and widespread civilization as they claim existed would surely have left both archaeological and cultural evidence, which in fact is entirely absent.

However, we are agreed that in the more conventional meaning of the word, Mormons are indeed Christians: They believe that Jesus was the christ.