Juddering under torque after low fuel

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by Peter Vawter, Feb 14, 2020.

  1. Peter Vawter

    Peter Vawter Junior Member

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    Good morning all,

    I wanted to get a consensus before I try some of the fixes I found for a similar issue in the forums.
    Hoping mine is a unique and easy fix, But we will see what you all think.

    Thank you ahead of time for your wisdom.

    Here are her stats...
    • gen 2 2005
    • 244000 ish miles
    • new transmission about 4 years ago (the previous owner never changed fluid)
    • I have been sick and she has only seen about 25 miles a week (OR LESS) of driving for the last 16 months.
    • had something stuck in the engine mount 3 years ago (easily removed by a technician and said the mounts looked ok)
    • Car always runs like a champ, only engine error I get is the knock sensor warning. (only when it is cold out)
    • i get a full inspection done every year and run full synthetic in all parts of the car
    • burns no oil.
    • modded to run in ECO mode with a pull of the high beams bar.
    • coolant and all other levels remain the same (except washer fluid Lol)
    • replaced the brakes about 4 years ago (full fluid flush)
    • modded the car to a sleeper camper (NO mechanical alterations only removed the seat and added sleeping frame)
    • DO have a hard-wired inverter directly to the battery (startup not big) (do not leave on)

    about a week ago on one of my small 4 mile round trips. I noticed what I felt like were small judders in the engine (like it was cutting out) or felt like a really rough road and since it is the middle of winter up here in Michigan I thought I was just hitting some rough areas in the road.

    This only occurred at slower speeds (25-35 mph)

    I drove the car again later in the week and was down to 1 bar on the gas gage (not blinking)
    and the problem presented itself again (but worse)
    The roads were dry and I noticed the problem occurring under torque application at the lower speeds

    It reminded me of how the car responded before it died on a trip where we did actually run out of gas (about 5 years ago).

    I thought there may be some water in the tank (cold and sitting for a while) so I added a half bottle of heat and some gas from a fuel can for my lawnmower.

    I then drove around the block a few times to see if the problem went away.
    It DID and I went to a local fuel place and got a few gallons. (I like to feed it better Costco gas and Would be there the next day so I did not fill up)

    The car ran terrifically the next morning (and has always idled very smoothly) even during the juddering issues.

    i ran my errand and filled up at Costco (low octane)

    On the way home (4 mile trip) The car again began to judder under load at slow speeds. Acted like an old motorcycle I had... Could get up to any speed if you took your time but when you gave it gas would choke and sputter.

    Stopped at a parking lot where my wife was parked (in case I needed a ride home) and popped the hood.

    The engine was idling SUPER smoothly (no hickups or misses that I could tell)

    I drove around the parking lot and experienced the same juddering.

    I manually turned off the traction control (wondering if something was stuck in the sensor or if the slippery snow was somehow causing really weird problems)
    The car was able to peel a strip through the snow and ice and had plenty of 0-10 mph torque (probably the electric drive) but again juddered at 15-30 ish.

    I decided to try to make it home (2 or so miles.)

    and experienced juddering after every stop but got home without issue.

    Could get up to 47 mph without a problem (if I did it relatively slowly) Definitely noticed a loss of power but could get up to the speeds I needed.

    Parked it and decided to get your pro opinions before I did anything else

    Thanks for your wisdom and feedback
     
  2. fotomoto

    fotomoto Senior Member

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    No trouble lights? Check for codes?

    Not good. I would look into the HV battery health first; transaxle second.

    GOOD LUCK!
     
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  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    bad fuel pump
     
  4. SFO

    SFO Senior Member

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    With 244k and the described symptoms, I would first try a quality PEA (or techron) fuel additive. Easy and inexpensive. You could also try berrymans b12 chemtool or Kreen in the fuel as well.

    There could be oil fouling or COP carbon tracking, when was the last time the spark plugs were changed or visually inspected?
     
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  5. eljefino

    eljefino Junior Member

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    Sounds like a bad coil, but I'd expect a code.
     
  6. eternalphoenix64

    eternalphoenix64 Junior Member

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    Well, you did say there's snow and ice on the ground. So it's cold out. Is the MIL lit up? And was it before all this started? If the answer to both is "yes", check your codes. I'd bet you have a misfire code that will help us further.
     
  7. Peter Vawter

    Peter Vawter Junior Member

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    Thanks for your reply. I dont know why I did not get notified that any replies had been made :(

    Normally the only code I have EVER gotten on the car is the knock sensor and only in the winter when it is cold.

    However I did add some fuel system cleaner and ran the car a bit. It ran like a charm until I went up as small (12-25 percent) incline. Then it ran like garbage alll the way home and will not even idle well now (After a few posts I will put a link to the video in one. Cant add a link yet :(

    It also began throwing Codes like the dashboard was a christmass tress (see Image)

    Thanks all for the feedback and sorry it took so long to reply (ill check my notification settings again)


    Thanks for your reply. I dont know why I did not get notified that any replies had been made :(

    However I did add some fuel system cleaner and ran the car a bit. It ran like a charm until I went up as small (12-25 percent) incline. Then it ran like garbage alll the way home and will not even idle well now (After a few posts I will put a link to the video in one. Cant add a link yet :(

    It also began throwing Codes like the dashboard was a christmass tree (see Image)


    Like spark Coil?

    Does that happen on priuses?

    Last car I replaced a coil in was an 85 Oldsmobile.
    I guess anything could go wrong though.

    Do you have more info on this or what Code would be shown. Here are the codes I am getting.
    Great questions.

    Plugs (possibly never changed) Have some and was thinking of changing them this summer.
    Added the Techron fuel aditive and is actually running worse (after going up a small incline)

    Attached are the codes I am getting after going up the hill. (also the car will not even idle well now)

    Was thinking of cleaning out the MAS and draining out the fuel< by shorting the pump (If I can find out where and how to disconnect the fuel line somewhere betweent the tank and the engine

    I hope not but I could see it as a reality.

    especially if there is water in the tank.

    Still dont know how to upload a video to show you how it is idling.

    When I figure it out I will put it up

    Thanks

    Thanks
    Here are my current codes.

    Battery seems to be OK moving slowly (not the super up and down of sick batteries) and Occasionally I put my battery healer on (a thing that really slowly (over days) charges the HV battery. I forget who makes it but have noticed a lot more battery health since using it.

    Thoughts on what could be wrong with the transaxel?

    thanks again for your wisdom
     

    Attached Files:

    #7 Peter Vawter, Mar 13, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2020
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  8. SFO

    SFO Senior Member

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    Dash image didn't make it through, and if you have that many lights on the tree then you have more than the one code (DTC) that is shown in the four (4) images you've posted (were they all meant to be the same image?).

    You really need a OBD2 code reader that is toyota hybrid compatible, many prefer a 'mini-vci' cable and techstream (toyota software).

    Maybe one of the auto parts stores will give you a loaner, and even then each store may or may not have a compatible scanner.

    The retrieved codes (DTCs) should be in a format like : P0A80 or C1310 or B2557

    If you ever find out the name of the product or who makes it, others here may be interested in such.
     
    #8 SFO, Mar 13, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2020
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  9. Peter Vawter

    Peter Vawter Junior Member

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    Sorry I guess I did not understand how the posting works here. I thought I was replying to each of you separately.

    Thanks I will look into the techstreme software (I do have the USB-OBD2 converter just never got the software). do you kwo where to find a copy?

    I will find the manufacturer and the link to the battery health keeper as well. Fairly easy to install and brought me back from the trangle of death when I got the car about 5 years ago. Been running well ever since.

    Ill see what I can do about getting some real codes

    Thanks again
     
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  10. Peter Vawter

    Peter Vawter Junior Member

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    The Grid charger (battery health restorer) I purchased was at hybridautomotive. If you search for "hybrid automotive grid charger" it should be the top on google. (sorry I still cant leave links in my posts yet LOL)

    Again is saved me from the Triangle a long time ago and the surpport (At least at the time was great)

    Not to hard to install (kind of ofun actually)

    I found that the whole setup (Including the 15 foot high amp cable I bought fits right in the left trunk storage)

    Hope it helps everyone. Its a lot cheaper than a new battery :)
     
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  11. SFO

    SFO Senior Member

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    Your posting was fine, you threaded them all together (preferred by the mods), possibly edited them, and then replied to each (y)

    Cool, many here know and use the HA products. Was hoping you might've had a less expensive grid charger that people could afford.

    There are a bunch of threads here that can help with the installation of techstream on a PC, or if you're stuck send me a PM.
     
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  12. Peter Vawter

    Peter Vawter Junior Member

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    thanks for the reply. Yeah they arent the cheapest of things but a lot less effort than a new battery :)

    Also I was able to get tech stream going but am having problems with my adapters drivers now LOL

    Currently running windows 10 64 bit and no luck as of yet getting the PC to see the adapter

    Might have to try an old wind 7 laptop but I think that is 64 bit as well.

    Tried some web links to install drivers on win 10 64 bit but most of the driver links go nowhere anymore.
    I guess Ill keep hunting. Unless you are aware of a windows 10 compatable OBD2 usb scanner
     
  13. SFO

    SFO Senior Member

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    Not sure which install or instructions you might be using, but this link could offer some relief : https://blog.obdii365.com/2017/12/03/toyota-techstream-12-30-017-download-and-install/

    Additional related links/posts as well, click the tags near the bottom : mini-vci, techstream, Toyota Tech stream, vxdiag vcx nano for toyota

    Any version should be fine, since you're just using it for basic scanning you don't need the latest and greatest.
     
  14. Peter Vawter

    Peter Vawter Junior Member

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  15. Peter Vawter

    Peter Vawter Junior Member

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    Thanks I will give this a look at and hopefully get back to you with some real info
     
  16. Peter Vawter

    Peter Vawter Junior Member

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    Ok all

    Thanks again for your wisdom

    Here is what I was able to get out of the car with Tech stream

    I kind of feel like you have to be a rocket scientist to understand it but...

    Are some of the codes what you were expecting? I also have A full CSV report but I cant attach it to this post. A link for it is here...
    2020 - Google Drive

    The car was idling very hard again and I switched it into drive and there was a larger than normal clunk and the enging started idling fairly smoothly again. I then drove around the block and it ran like it did at the begining with a reduction in torque and a slight feeling of tapping or thumping.

    Also the exhaust smells a little wierd (possibly form the fuel aditive)

    Also while sitting waiting for my ancient computer to work I recieve the error below on the main display screen of the car.

    Thanks again for your wisdom

    If you have any questions feel free to ask.
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Peter Vawter

    Peter Vawter Junior Member

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    Had to use a very old windos 7 laptop (but it is small and a great diagnostic for our Cars :) better than using my main laptop

    Thanks for such a fast reply. Were those the only two codes you could see? Could there be others?

    Do you think the car could even run with a timing chain error? I will look into charging my battery a bit more. and see if that helps

    Do you think driving the car would be better for it or more damaging. To a certian extent it does drive but I have to wonder why it gets so moody sometime.

    Thoughts on changing out the crankshaft sensor? Dosent look to hard if it actually fixes it

    thanks again

    Any other questions?
     
    #18 Peter Vawter, Mar 15, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2020
  18. SFO

    SFO Senior Member

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    Just the three (3) listed above as 'current', only focus on p0016 at this point, the other two (2) were for low 12v and solar sensor being in the shade. Read this thread for some options regarding P0016 : P0016 Code 2004 with 443,000 miles | PriusChat
    Yes it will, as your vehicle is currently running with a DTC P0016 error.
    Fixing the problem would be the best approach, couldn't see driving it around as improving anything at this point.
    You can test the sensor first, here is the workup for DTC P0335 : https://share.qclt.com/%E4%B8%B0%E7%94%B0%E6%99%AE%E7%91%9E%E6%96%AF%E5%8E%9F%E5%8E%82%E8%8B%B1%E6%96%87%E6%89%8B%E5%86%8Cpdf%E6%A0%BC%E5%BC%8F/Repair%20Manual/04pruisr/05/2054m/cip0335.pdf
     
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  19. Peter Vawter

    Peter Vawter Junior Member

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    Thanks for your replies and help And your patience on my reply.

    So it looks like it could be a timring belt issue. That kind of makes sense as I have been getting the p0016 errror for quite a while. that would definately be a dealer thing as I am contemplating if I am healthy enough to replace the sensor. (had a work injury a while ago and am still healing.) Which is kind of a bummer because I love this kind of car stuff. LOL

    Do you think switching out the sparkplugs is a good start no matter what? From what I understand that is not too bad with the correct extension. plus it would enable me to clean out the MAS. Or do you think that would be a waste of time if the dealership needs to replace the chain as well? (could just toss in some plugs while they are at it)

    Thanks for the other p0335 work around but it does bring up a few questions.
    1. where does one get great workups like this?
    2. with all the crazy tech and integrations in a car why arent they much more expensive lol
    3. it may or may not be easier to just replace it but, knowing if the wire harnes or other parts are bad is a great first step.
      Wouldent it be throwing the P0335 error If the sensor was bad? Or is that something the car is not capable of identifying.
    Thanks again for all your hlep and time.
     
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