Let he who is without "sin" cast the first stone..

Literally across the street from the church he stepped down from....

Air Force Academy's Honor Code, "We will not lie, steal, or cheat, nor tolerate among us anyone who does."

 

People, he wasn't just the head of the church, he started this church, and built it from the ground up. It's not just a moment of weakness from a deviant, it's the man himself, it's the true self revealed.

I'm sure that he will repent, and put on his false persona once again, and all the sheep will follow the artificial man they want to believe is real.

Nate

 

The man is human, as we all are. But, yes, I do think it's reasonable that someone in his position be held him to a somewhat higher standard.

I wonder how painful it was for him to preach out against some of the things that he was battling personally. Perhaps that, in itself, might be punishment enough?

And now, public humiliation.

I really do feel for him...how he seems to have been so overcome by his personal turmoil, and that it manifested itself this way.

And, now that it is public, it's our responsibility to not jump to condemnation. What if our public reaction damages any chances he might have to make right from this wrong...?

I, for one, don't want to take that chance.

 

Pinto, do you really think he's going to come to the pulpit, and profess that God loves gay people too? That he'll stop his message of hate and show love for all? Or do you think he will "repent"?

It's not the 'sin' of homosexuality that bothers me, it's the voice of hate and intolerance that he has screamed from the pulpit for so long.

I don't want to hear that he's sorry for having gay sex... I want to hear he's sorry for ever condemning gay people in the first place, gay people who want to be in a committed, monogamous relationship no less.

I am totally convinced that the more homophopic a person is, the more gay they really are, and it is truly a sin to project your own self-loathing onto society. For that, he should apologize.

Nate

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Nov 3 2006, 04:34 PM) [snapback]343480[/snapback]</div>

Do I really think he'll apologize for condemning homosexuals? No.

I think that even if he wanted to do what you suggest, there would be forces that would quickly put a stop to it.

The forces of change that I believe in act slowly...perhaps the best we can hope for is a better perspective on his part which might influence future decisions he makes. I think that's enough, actually.

I find myself wondering if the hatred he's spewed from the pulpit for was not directed against homosexuals at large, but was actually a reflection of his confusion and entrapment...his hatred of himself for reasons beyond his control...and that his statements were actually an ill-conceived attempt to quash his feelings. With his own words.

This is why it's actually a sad, sad situation...and why I find myself unable to be angry about it.

 

Have ya'll been back to the news to read the updates?

The last few posts make it seem as if not...

I'm not buying or selling any part of this until sometime in the next couple weeks when it finally all gets washed out... that being said, I'm getting the idea that the guy didn't do the gay sex thing...

The accusor is flunking the polygraph on the whole deal.

The accused fessed up to buying drugs from the accusor. This should be enough to end his ministry. I'll put this one (for today) in the Clinton didn't inhale basket. If you believe that, then jump on board here becasue Ted threw out the meth after he bought it, he didn't use it.

Anyhow, it would seem the accusor is not highly credible, so I'm going to lean on the side of these two guys never gettin all monkey on each other until we hear something more substantial.

I'm not sure what to think about buying meth and throwing it out. Anyone on here ever done meth or know someone who did? Would the people around him know the next day if he did the stuff? As many times as the accusor said they did all this stuff, wouldn't he be hooked on it and having some sorta crash right now?

It's a big enough mess and he's fessed up to enough to put him into retirement in my book. From here, it will be interesting to see what the 'church' does with it. A tap on the hand and asking him to please not repeat the offense would be an embarrassment to the church.

Ted's own explaination of buying the drugs but throwing them away as having been tempted but not sinning probably is on the wrong side of discretion for me. Thinking about buying drugs, but then not leaving the house is my version of being tempted but not sinning. At some point when he got out of the chair and left the house, I would say the temptation turned to sin.

He's not the first guy to commit a sin. He's just in a position where it can't be forgotten(forgiven, yes... but not brushed under the rug as a misunderstanding or a close call). They will forgive him and then he will have consequences for his choices... which will probably mean permanently stepping down from his ministry.

 

daron, you are close, but not quite there on a few facts. He didn't fail the whole polygraph, he was considered by the examiner to be not truthful about something. The examiner wants to readminister the test.

Clinton, for the record, stated that he tried to inhale, and messed it up. (I've seen this at college before, quite believable).

Everyone needs to see the video that Channel 9 took of the guy. He's basically searching for statements and explanations as he goes along. The written report doesn't do this thing justice.

The accusor is likely concerned about prosecution, soliciting prostitution (36 counts) and distributing meth (who knows how many times). My guess is that's where the polygraph starts to jump.

Haggard is the one whose credibility is shot. Last night, he stated he never called the guy or knew the guy. This morning, he stated he bought meth and got a massage from the guy.

I predict that tonight, or very shortly, we will here something worse, like he was seduced just once, then later, that he was sucked into the gay lifestyle, blah, blah blah.

I also give him equal odds of committing suicide in the next 72 hours.

Nate

 

I'll throw the first stone...what a hypocrite. There is a sucker born every minute and he has probably taken his share of money from his flock.

 

I hate to ask a question when I really don't want to know the answer... so if you happen to know the answer... please limit it to a "Yes on the forensics" or a "No, those forensics would not show signs". I'll try not to ask too much question if you'll try not to give too much answer... here goes...

Wouldn't a doctor from Ted's team, one from Jones team and one from a neutral 3rd party be able to know whether the exit ramp has been used for heavy construction in the past 3 years?

Somehow I think a minimal amount of CSI would show if there has been any breaking and entering in the neighborhood. Somehow I'd guess things would show as having been broken and entered.

Anyone who's into the gay thing think they'd carry on for 36 times without everyone having a turn? Could they carry on with Jones being a prostitute and Ted not have whatever fun STD's that come with that kinda thing?

If things are clear at the doc's office the burden of proof would be back on the Jones guy... Let's hear what's on the tapes too..

 

daron, maybe he pitches rather than catches? Besides, what makes you think he'd been to a doctor for a rectal exam?

p.s., here's the video. Wanna see somebody squirm?

http://wm.kusa.gannett.edgestreams.net/new...-interview-.wmv

 

You can catch snippets of the voicemail recordings here:

http://www.9news.com/acm_news.aspx?OSGNAME...fxUMvyH635Cw%3D

phrases that are clearly audible are:

"Hey Mike, this is Art, I am here in Denver, sorry that I missed you"

(the rest is cut off, but I'm SURE it was "to get a massage and nothing more") ;-)

and

"I was just calling to see if we can get any more" (again, the rest is cut off, but let me extrapolate out: "meth so that I can throw it away again like I did the first bit that I bought from you.") ;-)

Note, Haggard's middle name is Arthur. (He's creative, too!)

Nate

Okay, here's links to everything, including audio of the voicemails.

http://www.9news.com/acm_news.aspx?OSGNAME...47-c589c01ca7bf

Nate

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Nov 3 2006, 05:17 PM) [snapback]343537[/snapback]</div>

That's why I was asking the question... if they get together 36 at bats, what are the odds of never being the catcher... Especially given that this is not a romantic comedy we are talking about... this is supposedly gay sex with a prostitute. A preacher takes to hiring on one of these 36 times and sticks with pitching the whole time, never the other?

And, I was mostly suggesting that for his own credibility to get 3 docs so that we wouldn't be saying that he had his inside doc giving a clear signal... but rather 3 from diverse positions of representation.

Also, ask jones... so... who was pitching and who was catching... just to see if we should expect to find some damage on ted based on jones's story.

 

He can use the new excuse...that he is an alcoholic...go into rehab...come out and all is right with the world.

 

The test shouldn't be on public TV, but I think if Ted wants to convince us of his story, this whole doc exam thing is something he would do and make the results public.

Another way to put it....

If I was being accused of such a thing, I'd be at the doc getting a signed exam stating how much damage I have from such behavior. You get a trifecta of credible docs signed off on "No damage, and no evidence of such behavior".

I'd do that because I know what the doc would find. If Ted knows thats what the doc would find, then I'd tell him to have it done because he needs as many of the chips to fall his way as possible if these charges are false...

If he did what jones says, then.... Ted probably doesn't want to go see the doc about this.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Nov 3 2006, 06:15 PM) [snapback]343534[/snapback]</div>

The "gay thing"???

The "exit ramp"??

__________________

I think that most of this personal stuff is none of your -- or my, or anyone's -- dam business.

Also, the way you're handling the discussion is only further proof of your inability to treat a serious situation with anything near the degree of sensitivity that it deserves. This sort of discourse precisely illustrates why most intelligent dialogue is dead in the United States

This guy is probably now going through his own personal hell right now and I don't think he needs our help to make it any worse.

His life as he knows it is ruined; he's been shamed in public; his career is in all likelihood over. Isn't that enough for y'all?

_____________________

And why all this interest in (as you so articulately put it) "the exit ramp"?

Do you call exrement "poo-poo"?
Urine "pee-pee"?
When you cut yourself, do you have a "boo-boo"?

How about being adult enough to call it what it is: ANAL SEX. Look it up -- it's not an obscenity.

 

You know, the Jewish god said "be fruitful and multiply". How did the Christian god become "be chaste and pure"?

Looking at history, the Christian/Catholic church and its priests didn't become "chaste" until around the Middle Ages where "great" saints, such as St. Augustine, and thinkers had Casanova'ed a lot in their youth. They only became "sexless" and preached abstinence in their old age and reflection (and fear of death?), which became the current doctrine.

If this 180 degree flip isn't interesting, look at how the Church as turned out now... Most of their best thinkers don't pass on any genes, and love of boys and men seem to be "tradition" now, if not already since the Greek/Roman eras.

 

No, it's not enough for him to go through his own personal hell. What would be enough would be for his church to stop running all the anti-gay ads on TV against Proposition I before next Tuesday, and come out in support of gay rights.

I don't think a rectal exam will show anal tearing from August. STD tests might be in order, however, since anal sex has a higher risk of transmission of STD's, particularly with a prostitute.

Besides, I don't care that he has had anal sex with a man (I don't know the correct term for being on the receiving end). His sexual activity doesn't involve me. What does involve me are the laws, policies, and money that he can influence, and I'll say it one last time, that's where the problem lies.

Nate

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NuShrike @ Nov 3 2006, 07:05 PM) [snapback]343558[/snapback]</div>

Right; that was after the schism between the Orthodox and Catholic offshoots of Christianity; Greek Orthodox priests have always been allowed to marry.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Nov 3 2006, 07:11 PM) [snapback]343559[/snapback]</div>

I see what you're saying...I agree completely...and I'm also aware that I'm probably living in my own little pretend world.

I also agree that pulling the ads you're referring to would prob'ly be best (I don't own a TV so I'm not exposed to the media)...but I also believe in things having a way of working themselves out, and I guess I'm (possibly naively) trying to hope for the best. Maybe this won't happen, but maybe some sort of 'movement' behind the scenes will. We never know.

I have to keep the flame of hope alive. It's the only thing that's gotten me through my own trials; I believe that no fortress of hatred can survive the siege of relentless optimism.

I know it probably sounds lame, but it seems to me that in comparison to the endless bickering and namecalling, perhaps it would be better to turn down the volume a little and let things take their course (i.e., search for more productive ways to enable change)...the former, after all, seems to be getting us nowhere.