Let he who is without "sin" cast the first stone..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Nov 4 2006, 07:30 PM) [snapback]343908[/snapback]</div>

To name just two such measures, for a while we had the Sherman antitrust act and the Food and Drug Administration. Today of course Microsoft has them by the balls, and all manner of useless-to-poisonous crap can be sold as long as it is called a nutritional supplement.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alnilam @ Nov 5 2006, 11:44 AM) [snapback]344097[/snapback]</div>

Which is the American way.

Plumbers aren't Doctors and there is no reason to believe they should work a 24 hour a day, 7 day a week shift. Nor is there any reason to expect them to offer charity rates for missing their son's soccer game because you want it now. If you don't have water or it's not hot, you'll live until Monday. If you want it fixed immediately and you can find a plumber willing to work off-hours, then you pay what he asks. Don't complain about the amount. You don't like what he charges? Do it yourself. But you have no right to set his rate of pay.

Typical American attitude.

 

WOW there are alot of stoned FHOP people in this topic....

Churches:

I have been in some that pass an offering plate and ask for your money, others do not and feel if you want to give fine if not thats fine too.. The start of begging for peoples money for a church was jim/tammy baker, oral roberts, benny hinn, jerry falwell ect. (to group all churches into the same catagory doesnt know what they are talking about....

The American way is GREED we all want nice things and that takes money... Ever tried to buy a Prius on a bag boys pay? At best the bag boy may find a cheap car at a buy here / pay here lot.

Lets see here if we edit this a little it also explains mans science:

Everyone here on PC has one or more Skeletons in thier closet..
I see alot of broken windows

The name callers are the funniest here; Sheeple , neo-cons, ect. remember you're listed in the same catagory on the oppisite side of the fence....

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh Lie detectors, I could go to nite class for 40 hrs and become a Lie Detector opperator.
I believe they have been deemed inacurate in court.... All you need to do is push an innocent mans button and it will show he lied.....

the majority rules here on PC ya'll might as well take Haggard & religious people including the white house staff or anyone else that shy's away from the Liberal code of ethics out to the gallows and hang them in the center of town... :blink: :mellow:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Nov 5 2006, 11:12 AM) [snapback]344160[/snapback]</div>

You might think so if the ad in the phone book says "Available 7 days a week." Barbers don't usually work on Monday but they don't raise their charges on Saturday. If he wants to see his kid's game, he can say' "I'm busy now." There are others. All you're saying is he's putting a price on his kid's soccer game. I wonder if the kid gets an input.

Typical American value system.

Do doctors charge the same all the time? Not in my experience. Anybody mention charity? A lot of defense of plumbers here. I'm not complaining, just stating that plumbers aren't any more noble than any other group. As an airline pilot, I worked every day of the week, every holiday of the year at one time or another and there was no extras pay for doing so. My kid had games too, and I missed a bunch of them. If you're in a service industry, you needn't extort your customers. Some do, some don't.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(grasshopper @ Nov 4 2006, 11:02 AM) [snapback]343750[/snapback]</div>

I thought folks join religions to be set free. getting back onto the thread of quitting a church because of hypocracy ... isn't that why Jesus was crucified? Becuse he bitched about the religious leaders heaping onerous burdens on the common folk that they didn't even meet their selves? And I think it was written in the book of Psalms that there is nothing new under the sun. Guess it's true. Hmmm. Ok end of sermon. I'm gona go back to porking the neighbor, then get ready for sunday school. Just kidding.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(grasshopper @ Nov 4 2006, 11:02 AM) [snapback]343750[/snapback]</div>

I kept quiet here, reading this thread...then this.

God offers protection; an umbrella if you will, from the problems of the world. To give of yourself to God takes more strength, and pure guts, then just running from Him.

Now, here is the deal. This preacher, he screwed up (and sideways, and down...but you get the point). And frankly, I don't know him, so I don't know how far his sexual adventures went. Nor was I there when he took possession of meth. I don't know if he took it or not. I know, that as a sinner myself, and a preacher, who has had his fair share of mistakes; some large, some not, that I should not judge him.

Here is an example from the Bible, that should help shed some light on my thinking...

The leaders of the church led in a woman who had been caught in an act of adultery. They stood her in plain sight of everyone and said, “Hey! Christ! This whore was caught red-handed in the act of adultery. Now, your Bible says, we should stone such persons. What do you say?â€

They were trying to trap him into saying something incriminating so they could bring charges against him, to oust him.
Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger in the dirt. They kept at him, badgering him. He straightened up and said, “Look, you monkeys. Here's the deal: The sinless one among you, go first: Throw the stone.â€

Bending down again, he wrote some more in the dirt.
Hearing that, they all walked away, one after another, beginning with the oldest. The woman was left alone.

Jesus stood up and spoke to her. “Check it: Where are they? Does no one condemn you?â€
“No one, Master.â€
“Well, get this: Neither do I,†said Jesus. “Go on your way. From now on, don’t sin.â€


I have never preached on hate. Of any kind. Since I full embraced my being a sinner, and not even close to being perfect, I have a easier life.

It's easy to condemn; harder to forgive. So this guy screwed up. So he advocated a hateful, non Christ driven message.

Wouldn't it speak volumes if someone who was gay, forgave him?

Just to hate someone, someone you don't know especially, well, it's just as bad as that person who did the sin in the first place.


Who here is innocent of sin? Who here has never said something, and done something else? I'm not saying what he did was correct. But man, if we really are a 'civilized' country, we need to grow up, and learn to forgive one another.

 

No biggie, eh? It would speak volumes if he and his flock renounced their hate, and made amends.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Nov 5 2006, 10:32 PM) [snapback]344384[/snapback]</div>

I see.

Would the victims of the 2004 tsunami concur?
The victims of Katrina?
The victims of 9/11?
The victims of disease?
The victims of war, famine, pestilence, persecution, hurricane, fire?
The victims of religious zealots?

Some umbrella.

If that's what constitutes protection, I'll provide my own, thanks. The protections we enjoy today from much of the above list were devised by man specifically to shield ourselves from the "precipitation" of wanton gods. And it will be thanks to no god when we devise protections from the rest.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Nov 6 2006, 03:25 AM) [snapback]344392[/snapback]</div>

Did I say, 'no biggie'? No. I did not. I mentioned what he had did. I personally think it's not correct, what he did. On many levels.

He lied. That is enough right there.
He advocated hating gays, and proposed laws that would basically outlaw gays. Which is wrong.
He got his flock to follow him, down this road, that is in direct contrast to what Christ would have taught.

In many ways, he is the very kind of crooked preacher that the Bible warns against.

If his flock renounced their hate, and made amends, yes, that would speak volumes.

However, since many of them are duped into believing he did no wrong (I read many quotes, from his followers, blaming this on the media), I think it would say even more if those he accused of evil, gay folks, forgave him.

To err, human. To forgive, divine.

So many people just want to hate, and hate comes on both sides of the coin. From those who hate those who believe in Christ, mock them if you will, because they believe, to those who believe in Christ mocking, hating if you will, those who don't; it's just wrong.

As I said, I am a preacher. I preach on Christ's love. Peace, love, and understanding. Not the hate that man has made.

Many hate me because I want peace, because I believe in a peaceful prophet named Christ. I don't really care if anyone ever believes in Christ. However, I would love it if the entire world embraced Christs message of love.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Nov 6 2006, 03:27 AM) [snapback]344393[/snapback]</div>

God offers protection, in a larger sense then what is on earth. I know, when I die, I will have left the planet trying to help people see things in a more forgiving light. I don't do this for me; I don't get paid to do it. I don't care if you believe or not. I just see that the world is spinning into a hateful spiral, and that both sides contribute. It's wrong when people twist Christ's words, into a means to justify hare, war, that sort of thing.

When people bring up disasters, has it ever occurred to them, that the world just reacts to negativity, with negative results? It's all connected. The old thing about a butterfly flapping it's wings in Africa making a hurricane show up along the coast of Florida, I think carries lot of weight.

Believing in God's protection, is believing in God's love. And if we all believed in Love being all we need, then maybe the world's positive energy would flow with more force.

Sounds like something a hippy would say, I know. But truth is, I put the carts away.

I allow others to merge in front of me. I hold the door open. I wait at the back of the line. I give away things. I try to do as well as I can for the planet. I own two hybrids. I do what I can.

I'm not trying to brag. I'm just pointing out what I try to do, to leave the planet in a better way then when I got here.

Preachers like this dude, they ruin things. Make it hard for the rest of us. But we have to forgive him, and move forward. We have to try to fix what he fu**ed up. We can sit here, and condemn his actions, and the man himself, or we can try to move on. Try to live by example. I'm not a perfect person. But I try to be like that whom I follow, Christ.

 

Some here could use a lesson from the Amish who forgave that man who shot those school children. Especially the ones so gleeful over this mans downfall. I can't imagine the ruin not only to his own life but the ruin to family, friends and others he has caused because he was weak and yes a hypocrite. Your words of gleeful hate, intolerance and spiteful hypocrisy not only against thie man but most if not all of Christianity brand you deeper and more surely as a hypocrite than Haggard himself. <_<

BTW the Amish are an organized Christian religion. Think you can match their love for God and his Word which asks us to forgive and love our enemies? It's doubtful but have hope you can educate yourselves. Try the Bible it's a good resource.


Wildkow

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Nov 5 2006, 11:27 PM) [snapback]344393[/snapback]</div>

God did that on many many occasions, and still does today but each time the objects of His love and protection rejected Him. So with a failed policy and course of action would you suggest that he "Stay the Course?" What would your policy be? Would it be "Cut N' Run?"
Rest assured He has done neither instead He has devised another way through His Son and now I like to refer to the strategy as akin to "Tough Love."
But like the Father of the prodigal son He keeps his eye on the road and when He spots His lost children far off he doesn't wait around until His son comes to Him. He doesn't even run down and wait to meet them half way instead He has His helpers gather and set a great feast, grabs His best cloak and runs all the way down to them and though dirty and smelling like pig poo he gathers us to Him and without condemnation or harsh words He accepts and forgives us. Those are not my words for I don't think I have that kind of character in me yet but I continue to try and even though I fail time and time again His policy is 7X70.
Forgiveness, tolerance, love try it sometime it does a body good.
You'll find all this in the Bible but very rarely will you find it in the lives of others. So don't look to them expecting to find what is not there, instead keep your eyes on Jesus and the rest will take care of itself. Surely you don't have a problem with the way Jesus, as depicted in the Bible, lived His life do you?

Wildkow

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Nov 6 2006, 12:15 AM) [snapback]344396[/snapback]</div>

How about following your own advice, Wildkow? There's a lot of anger and not much forgiveness in your posts. If the majority of Christians behaved like the Amish, far fewer people would see Christianity as a money-making con game. The Amish use their belief in their imaginary friend in the sky to live a life of peace, love, and tranquility. Haggard and his followers use their belief in their imaginary friend in the sky to justify greed, intolerance, judgementalism, and hatred.

I'm not a Christian (as you well know). So the best way to convince me to practice the precepts of your religion would be to practice them yourself first. It really rings hollow when Christians who do not practice their own values (or whose real values are so emphatically un-Christian) insist that non-Christians should practice Christian values; and when the only example they can point to is one very small sect that is persecuted by the very Christians who point to them as an example for non-Christians.

I respect the Amish.

I'd respect other Christians a lot more if they acted more like the Amish.

Of the self-proclaimed Christians who participate in these threads here on FHOP, TJandGENESIS seem to be the only one who acts like a Christian, for which I deeply respect him, even though I think his talk of god is silliness. God is a boogeyman invented by priests, and their ilk, to scare the superstitious masses into subservience. It is a credit to their skill as manipulators that in this day and age so many people still buy it. Either that, or a witness to the mind-boggling gullibility of the human animal.

 

Something for the soundtrack for this thread:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/video/methandmanass.mp3

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Nov 5 2006, 11:08 PM) [snapback]344346[/snapback]</div>

So you skipped Sunday School? :lol:

 

What can I say. Christians that preach torture and murder every day, except when it is one of their own religious/political circle scumbags, in which case they preach love and forgiveness, just does not make me want to join the group.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Nov 6 2006, 12:01 AM) [snapback]344395[/snapback]</div>

Wonderful! I commend you. Would that all mankind recognized the power of love, tolerance, forgiveness, respect. None of that requires a god, and last of all some god's "protection."

I find it deeply insulting to mankind that some believe man isn't capable of bettering his own life, that he needs supernatural help. What rot! The best and finest attributes of mankind are attributable to man's efforts alone, undeflected, undistracted and undeluded by belief in a fantasy.

Let's remove the condition that "unconditional" love is conditional on belief, and simply exercise unconditional love unconditionally. Where is a paradox in that equation?

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Nov 6 2006, 12:43 AM) [snapback]344400[/snapback]</div>

I don't understand. Are you saying all the victims I named rejected god and he took revenge?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Nov 6 2006, 12:43 AM) [snapback]344400[/snapback]</div>

I couldn't agree more.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Nov 6 2006, 12:43 AM) [snapback]344400[/snapback]</div>

I couldn't disagree more. I've observed exactly the opposite. In half a century of life and travel I've yet to find all but the deranged friendly, compassionate, intelligent, their lives nourished by love and thrilled to be alive, eager to make new acquaintance. True misanthropes are rare.

The bibles - King James, Koran, etc. do make the ten thousand year old observation that love has great power, but they clot the message up with all the ignorance of their age and also advocate wholesale slaughter for trifles, and demand belief in competing fantasies.

Tell me. If both "Christian" and Muslim concur that love should prevail, why not dispose of the useless, distracting precept of belief in some non-essential diety that comes between them and focus on what they agree is most important: love.

Or is the belief more important than love?

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

What a nice thing to read on a Monday morning.

I, too, do my best to let people who are feeling aggressive simply have their way. I don't consider myself a Christian, though, but I respect its core values.

I think that if you attempt to amend someone's behavior, it's like judging them, and that's just not a good idea in my opinion. It'll probably just make them even more angry, too.