Let he who is without "sin" cast the first stone..

The book I'm reading currently while commuting back and forth on BART is called 'Airman's Odyssey' by Antoine de Saint Exupery.

There are two interesting thoughts which happen to be in the forward, by a man named Richard Bach (apparently he flew fighter planes out of Toulouse in the mid-1960's).

He quotes Saint-Exupery: "If you are to be, you must begin by assuming responsibility. And you -- alone -- are responsible for every moment of your life...for every one of your acts."

Also, Bach made the observation that, "Whether [Saint-Exupery] lived or died didn't make that much difference. Time and time again he set off on adventures which placed human values over personal survival..."

I think the latter quote, especially, is wonderful...perhaps if we could get just a teensy bit more 'we' and just a pinch less 'me' we'd all be better off.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Nov 6 2006, 10:37 AM) [snapback]344573[/snapback]</div>

Whe you've finished with St Exupery, read Richard Bach's "Nothing By Chance" and Ernest Gann's "Fate Is The Hunter" for some great reading and exploration of the vicissitudes of fate. Both are biographic journals.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Nov 6 2006, 09:11 AM) [snapback]344531[/snapback]</div>

RAmen to that!!!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Nov 6 2006, 04:26 PM) [snapback]344688[/snapback]</div>

Hey, is that a staggerwing Beech...?
____________

Thank you; I've enjoyed "Fate Is The Hunter" but haven't even heard of Richard Bach until now. "Nothing By Chance" will be next on my list.

I'm waging somewhat of my own personal battle against the fear of aviation: I've completed successfully ground school, but am afraid to take the exam, let alone begin flying.

Not afraid of *flight* by any stretch of the imagination...not at all (although my understanding of meterology isn't nearly what it could be). And I suspect that I might be a pretty good pilot (if you'll permit a moment of immodesty) since I used to work as a helicopter simulator instructor at a local aviation museum.

I'm afraid of doing something wrong and getting in trouble with the FAA, or simply making a fool of myself! That's what really worries me. Staying within the guidelines of the system and not holding up airline traffic or something like that...
[smile]

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Nov 6 2006, 07:11 AM) [snapback]344473[/snapback]</div>

Said the Pot to the Kettle. One of the difference's between you and I is that I see a lot of good in human kind and you see next to none if any at all.

Wildkow

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Nov 6 2006, 10:17 PM) [snapback]344862[/snapback]</div>

I see much good in the human race.

I see no good at all in religion, which, as I've said elsewhere at greater length, divides nation from nation and practices intolerance while it preaches love.

I also see very little good in government, which is an instrument by which the rich maintain their power over the poor.

I see so much good in the human race that I don't think we need government and police and armies to "protect' us from each other. You are the one who sees so much evil in the human soul that you do not believe you could survive without an army slaughtering the people of any country that dares to reject the supremacy of America. (Or at least those with oil.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Nov 7 2006, 08:45 AM) [snapback]344933[/snapback]</div>

The downside for you on this one is... There are no sidelines in the Religion debate. We're all in.. even you...

Turns out you and I picked different teams in the big game, but no one is riding the bench or sitting in the stands on this one.

Athiesm is a belief... just like Christianity is... Just like many of the other world religions.

Takes a lot of faith to be an athiest...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Nov 7 2006, 09:45 AM) [snapback]344933[/snapback]</div>

I didnt want to retype the questions

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Nov 6 2006, 11:17 PM) [snapback]344862[/snapback]</div>

"between you and me"....

 

Nonsense.

Atheism is an opinion. Which is probably why atheists tend to seek knowledge and understanding, while religion embraces ignorance to prolong the status-quo -- their beliefs.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Nov 6 2006, 04:15 AM) [snapback]344396[/snapback]</div>

Yes, but the Amish also believe that ALL of you are going to burn forever in Hell. Hmmm...not so nice. Trying living 40 years in Lancaster County, PA, where I was born and raised, before you start painting such a rosey picture of them. My ancestors were Mennonite, of which the Amish are a branch, and I can tell you that many Amish can be just as mean, spiteful, greedy, and intolerant as the next man. They may "seem" all peaceful and forgiving, but almost everyone of them will admit they they feel it is perfectly just in their eyes that you burn FOREVER in Hell, because they have had to work so hard to be good on this earth.
Bad religion is just bad religion, period.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Nov 7 2006, 11:11 AM) [snapback]345046[/snapback]</div>

So you are saying, atheiests don't actually believe there is no God... The idea that there is no God is a generic opinion, but no one can take to believing that opinion or they would in fact 'believe' in the fact that there is no God.

Just because I've never seen a Amazon red snouted fire ant, can I say there is none?

Athiests say there is no God. They haven't seen Him... so can they say there is none?

No...

not for sure... it's like anything you haven't seen... maybe you'll see it tomorrow.. until then, if you believe there is none, it is just that.. a belief..

Believing there is no God takes a lot of faith in yourself. A ton of faith that you are right on this topic. It takes a lot of faith to be an athiest. If I say "Maybe you are wrong"... you well up with what? You respond with your belief that there is no God and you think through why you believe it, what you have / have not seen that brings you to that belief.

The bigger the athiest, the stronger the believer...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Nov 7 2006, 01:46 PM) [snapback]345121[/snapback]</div>

If you'll pardon me for interjecting...and I know it's none of my business...but I'm totally cool with accepting a wide range of spiritual beliefs, as long I'm not made an outcast for what I believe or don't.

Everyone on PC is probably sick of my pacifism by now, but (here I go again) what's important to me is thinking about one's life and attempting to live it in an examined fashion. For some people, that seems to manifest itself in practising organized religion, for others, not.

It's THINKING about ourselves, in *itself* that makes us better able to function as an organized, specialized society. We'll never come to an agreement about so many issues; perhaps it's time to move on from some of them...?

 

Daron,

Atheism is no more a belief, than creationism is science.

The reasons are the same.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Nov 7 2006, 09:11 AM) [snapback]345046[/snapback]</div>

That must be why the first institutes of higher learning were religious, started by churches. That must also be why some of the better educational institutions today are also started by religious institutes and churches. LOL! Your crackpot theories and inaccurate accusations make you look intolerant and ignorant. Hit the books first before you make statements like that.

Wildkow



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(keydiver @ Nov 7 2006, 10:28 AM) [snapback]345105[/snapback]</div>

http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=18843&hl=

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Nov 7 2006, 02:11 PM) [snapback]345142[/snapback]</div>

True, logically...seems to me that saying something *doesn't* exist and requiring proof that it *does* is completely different than saying that something *does* exist and requiring proof that it *doesn't.*

I mean, if you'll pardon the absurdity, say that I believe in invisible unicorns, and I assert that they do exist. How could you possibly disprove that? So, based upon that, anyone can believe anything, based purely on faith, and it can not be refuted...? That doesn't seem right.

On the other hand, if I say to you that there are no invisible unicorns, and you assert that there are...the burden of proof does seem to fall upon the person taking the affirmative point of view. But...what if there really *are* invisible unicorns? It'd be impossible to prove, wouldn't it, since they exist in a place that our senses cannot go.

That's why they call it *faith* because it's a willingness to believe in things larger than ourselves, which we're unable to fully comprehend. I can't refute it...I can't prove it...lots of people seem to find comfort in it...as long as we can all get along (and that's the 'if')...IMHO I don't think it's nearly the big deal that it's become.

Personally, I can reconcile evolution and creationism. I mean, yeah, there was the Primordial Soup (that's what they called it back in high school anyway) n'all, out of which we emerged...but how, exactly did those first atoms and molecules...those first living cells...get that 'spark of life' which transformed them from inert chemicals to living things, with the capacity to grow into sentient being such as ourselves...?

There, dear readers, is where the magic occurred. The world is big and mysterious enough that there -- even today -- remains room for many different beliefs.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Nov 7 2006, 01:11 PM) [snapback]345046[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Col. Henry Potter @ 1976)</div>

IMHO, to believe in God requires thinking, and understanding your own personality, as much as it does to believe in nothing; to be an atheist.
It requires strength of will, to admit publicly, that you believe in something that has no physical evidence, that you can point to, and say, 'There is God.' Sure, one can see the effects of God, everywhere, but if one wants, one can attribute that to whatever.

If you want to be an atheist, fine and dandy. However, if I want to believe in God, in Christ, wouldn't it be cool if I was not put down, in some sort of deriding fashion? If my beliefs were treated with the same respect I give those who don't care to believe?

 

The thing that has kept me from reading this thread in detail is the more antgonistic points of view. Allusions have been made to "The Church Lady" (remember Saturday Night Live?", but I also see stuff that I'd dub as "The Anti-Church Lady", including the thread introduction: "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA".

I've met plenty of people in churches that were out of place with it's stated belief and offended me. For instance, a singles department had this young guy that was trying to be the ultra Yuppie, shirts as starched as cardboard, no hair out of place, every move to be pious, but somewhat undermined, with his not so subtle advertising he's going to be a success - DATE ME! Traded his CRX (pre-Insight) for an SUV. If you look upon people as an example, they usually let you down.

Ted Haggart life did not reflect his beliefs and it did not take long for his church to decide he had to go. On a very personal level, an ex-coworker was open about very similar beliefs, yet he had problems with porn. Had an enormous amount of grief with his persistant advances at me, even though short of screaming or contacting management I made it very clear I was not interested in him or same-sex relationships. Lots of very bad messengers that did not live up to an ideal.

I'd like to offer Bono as a good example...

 

How long did it take the vatican to declare Earth round ? Or is that still a religious controversy ?

Anybody here visited, or familiar with the evangelical natural history museum in the Mid-west ? Cowboys ride on dinosaurs.

Want an idea how human knowledge advances under the strict control of christianity ? Try reviewing the middle ages of Europe.

I could go on for about 2000 years documenting christianity's role in blocking social and scientific progress at every opportunity, but thankfully they have been only partly successful, and wikipedia is just a click away.