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Featured Lexus RZ is selling $13,000 below MSRP in Southern California due to inventory surplus

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Gokhan, May 22, 2024.

  1. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    This is not really news, but I ran into this on the Longo site.

    Longo Toyota alone here have 74 RZs in stock. They are very nice SUVs, much better than the bZ4X, and despite the $7,500 customer cash, they are not selling. So, people still don't want BEVs.

    Well, in case if anyone is looking for a lucrative deal for a BEV SUV around here, this is it. In addition to the $7,500 cash offer, there is a dealer discount of about $3,000. You can probably easily negotiate another $2,000 dealer discount. You will drive home a nice Lexus BEV SUV $12,000–13,000 below MSRP if not even lower.

    New Lexus Cars for Sale in El Monte, CA | Longo Lexus

    CUSTOMER CASH
    5/1/2024 - 6/3/2024 Expires 06-03-2024.
    7,500 Lexus Cash from Lexus Division of Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A., Inc. from participating dealer's stock and subject to vehicle availability. Amount of Lexus Cash and eligible vehicles vary by region; void where prohibited. This offer is not compatible with special lease or finance rates offered through Lexus Financial Services (LFS). Offer available in AK, AZ, CA, CO, ID, MT, NM, NV, OR, UT, WA, WY; void where prohibited. Expires 06-03-2024. See your participating Lexus dealer for details. Offers are subject to change throughout the Invitation to Lexus Sales Event, which ends on 06-03-2024. LFS is a service mark of Toyota Motor Credit Corporation (TMCC). Retail installment accounts may be owned by TMCC or its securitization affiliates and lease accounts may be owned by Toyota Lease Trust (TLT) or its securitization affiliates. TMCC is the servicer for accounts owned by TMCC, TLT, and their securitization affiliates.
     
  2. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Not my style of vehicle, it is class leading:
    upload_2024-5-22_5-35-56.png
    • Tesla no longer offers a rear wheel drive Model Y
    • Hyundai Kona is very close with both getting 27 kWh/100 mi
    Bob Wilson
     
  3. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Strange ... an inventory glut? No media running "Sky is falling" drama stories about no one wanting these?

    We had the very 1st SUV RX Lexus ... and it was nice ... but blind spots were annoying. Here we are 18yrs later & instead of making visibility better? Now it's just downright troubling.
    Very few media outlets seem to want to report positive ev reports - but instead slobber over ways to slant a negative spin.
    Thus - it'll be hard to find stories like this;
    Tesla Increases Cybertruck Production Run Rate by a Whooping 50% in Three Weeks – Annualized Cybertruck Production Now Seats at 75,000 Units Following a Buttery Smooth Production Ramp | Torque News
    .
     
    #3 hill, May 22, 2024
    Last edited: May 22, 2024
  4. BiomedO1

    BiomedO1 Senior Member

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    It's literally tough to bite the hand that feeds you - ergo the fluff pieces. Actual accurate investigative media is very difficult these days When you have "influencers" willing to do it for free, just for the click bait... IMHO
    I'm too paranoid and have too much range anxiety to go with a BEV. I like camping, hunting, and fishing in remote locations, most places that you can't find a plug - which is the point of the vacation. I'll stick with Hybrids - Thank You....
     
    #4 BiomedO1, May 22, 2024
    Last edited: May 22, 2024
  5. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Current inventory at our nearby Toyota dealership; they’re awash in BZ4X:


    IMG_4208.jpeg
     
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  6. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    A nice deal if someone was planning on getting a bZ4X. They end up about the same price.
    How did the RZ get a better efficiency rating than the bZ4X?
     
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Ex-president brand sharpie.

    Bob Wilson
     
  8. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    It depends on what you consider the class. The model Y is back with rwd, tesla keeps changing configurations and pricing rwd nets you 320 miles vs 310 mile range for awd. The one you isn't available the smaller battery awd. For most people it is the highway distance that is most important. Here the tesla is more efficient and has a supercharger network to make long distance travel easier. The lexus appears more efficient on the city test. If you are worried about the cost of electricity and don't take long trips perhaps the lexus is better, this is likely down to the less sticky tires.

    Compare Side-by-Side



    It is not a mystery why the lexus rz is not selling well despite the discounts. My brother bought a lyriq which he thought was more luxurious than the lexus after 19 years with a camry hybrid. He got $10K off the sticker, its less efficient but has a lot more range 314 versus 266 and in georgia not a very different price than the Lyriq. The reason for the discounts is the model Y is priced $10K cheaper than the rz, and gets a tax credit if you qualify. A cousin bought the ioniq 5. The first cousin to follow me into bevs bought a model 3, 4 years ago.

    Toyota can bring its costs down in a redesign and bring the range up to the completion. It isn't there yet and with the lexus nx phev and rav4 phev there are better designed lexus/toyota plug-ins that are competitive.
     
  9. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    It is a newer vehicle, and they have been improving their BEV technology. Toyota seems to excel at reducing BEV drivetrain loses, like in my Gen 4 Prius Prime that gets 133 mpge. Tesla doesn't seem good at reducing drivetrain losses, but they are better at reducing the aerodynamic losses, but for me, Model X/Y's looks are literally nauseating, especially in white.
     
  10. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    Ha I can do one better. A local Subaru dealer has 64 Subaru Solterras. They're knocking $7500 right off the top cash/loan price plus I'm sure they'll deal. The base models, Premium, are about $39000.

    Simple answer: The bZ4X FWD has 8.1 inches (206 mm) of ground clearance while the RZ 300e has 7.87 inches (200 mm).

    The rest is a mystery. The RZ 300e is FWD only and about 11 lbs heavier than the bZ4X FWD XLE, but Lexus decided to put in a subframe where the rear motor was supposed to be making the car a little stiffer. The bZ4X CD is .279 while the RZ 300e is .29 so that doesn't help. The RZ 300e also has the CATL 72.8 kWh battery while the bZ4X XLE FWD has the PPES 71.4 kWh. Still it raises eyebrows, but I'll go with better more efficient electronics and lighter more expensive materials, since it is an entirely new model. The RZ 300e has power everything including both front seats and rear hatch. The bZ4X FWD XLE has none of these powered nor is that an option.
     
  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Tesla motors are some of the most efficient available. Lucid is probably the only one better. The Model 3 is almost efficient as your Prime.
    It is an entirely new model in the same manner as the Rav4 and NX. It might have gone into production a year later than the bZ4X. Production models were shown at the time bZ4X production started. Reports are the RZ uses the same motors as in the bZ4X.

    Don't see how lighter materials will help with the RZ being a little heavier. The AWD to FWD difference in efficiency is worse for the bZ than the RZ. With the CATL battery in the AWD bZ, I don't see that being a contributor to the FWD RZ doing better. Though the 80kW front motor could be less efficient than the 150kW in the test. The reduced frontal area could be doing more than just making up for the increase in drag. The tires could be making some difference.

    It is a 2.8% to 5% difference between the two models. Perhaps it is just an illusion brought on by the high starting mpge figures.
     
  12. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    The drivetrain losses are not only about the motor. There are frictional forces in the gears etc. In my analysis of the EPA drag curves, the Prius Prime seemed to have a more efficient drivetrain and the Model 3 more efficient aerodynamics.
     
  13. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    Apparently Denso developed its first SiC powered inverter which it then stuck in the RZ. It is not present in the bZ4X or Subaru Solterra.
    https://www.greencarcongress.com/2023/04/20230404-denso.html

    While Denso themselves claim a 50% increase in efficiency over the standard inverter, inverter efficiency does not tell the whole story which is why we're seeing only slightly better performance over the FWD bZ4X - 125 MPGe vs 119 MPGe. The RZ is heavier and not as aerodynamic.

    The RZ 300e uses the same motor as in the FWD bZ4X, 150 kW. The RZ 450e uses a more powerful front motor (150 kW) than in the bZ4X AWD (80 kW), is significantly heavier, 232 lbs (105 kg) than the bZ4x AWD XLE, is not as aerodynamic yet only loses 8 miles in range with the same 18" tires. Both RZ's do have the split rear spoiler found in only the Limited bZ4X but I question it's contribution.
     
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  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The RZ is 0.6 inches shorter. The reduced frontal area could be making the total drag the same between them.

    Toyota swapped which drive train got which battery between the RZ and bZ4X. Which is part of the increased weight. The RZ loses 8 miles while getting a tiny bit more kWh.

    I'm guessing the RZ AWD charges at the speed of the FWD bZ4X, and not the AWD one.
     
  15. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    I am sure ultimately Toyota will make the most energy-efficient BEVs, just like they did the most energy-efficient ICE-only cars and HEVs and PHEVs. They are barely getting into the game at the moment.
     
  16. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    I bought a silver 2020 Prius Prime XLE in September 2019 and a blue 2021 Prius Prime Limited in November 2020.

    Back in 2020, no one wanted a Prius Prime PHEV. That was despite a $4,502 a federal tax credit, a $1,500 state credit, a $1,000 utility-company credit, thousands of dollars in factory rebates, thousands of dollars in dealer discounts, and carpool-lane stickers. They were effectively selling for $12,000–13,000 below MSRP. Why? Because people thought that a PHEV with a battery would break down in a few years. They hardly wanted a Prius HEV as well. The gas was cheap, too.

    The result: I had a great shopping experience. I wanted a blue Limited, and Longo Toyota had two or three if not more of them in stock. I picked up the newest one, did not even bother to negotiate for further dealer discounts than the $2,500 I already got, and got the car for less than under $10,000 MSRP. It was a great first drive home because it was such a nice and beautiful car—exactly what I wanted and what I got without any hassle. I've been happily ever after since.

    I am sure the current sentiment against BEVs will change soon in the coming years when people appreciate how much nicer they are than ICE cars.
     
    #16 Gokhan, May 23, 2024
    Last edited: May 23, 2024
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  17. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    The bz4x probably is also getting discounted ;-)
    I have no idea if the wheels and tires are the same, but here is a strange thing - The bz4x limited with 20" wheels and tires (30kwh/mile) is more efficient than the rz300 with 20" tires (31kwh/mile). While on 18" tires the rz300 (27 kwh/mile) is more efficient than the bz4x on 18" tires (28 kwh/mile).

    Compare Side-by-Side



    Perhaps looking at the tesla model Y would give a clue. The AWD model Y on 19" tires didn't change from 2023 to 2024 but the epa went from 28kwh/mile to 29 kwh/mile. This was do to changes in the epa testing methodology.

    Compare Side-by-Side



    So it could be just testing methodology and remember YMMV. Or it could have to do with the more efficient SiC that tesla and Lexus use versus toyota, or maybe its all on the wheels and tires. The numbers are close enough to not worry about it. I have no idea why the awd toyota and lexus evs take such an efficiency hit versus the tesla, but this could be because of higher driveline losses.

    I don't really know, but I also don't think efficiency is the key to sales. Being 5% worse in efficiency, but with a better overall experience (highway range, faster charging, lower price, cargo area) may result in better sales.

    I agree they are barely getting into the game and they can easily improve on these offerings. Toyota used to be a fast follower, and can easily take apart the Teslas, bmws, hyundais, cadilacs, and fords and see how to improve the ev platform.
     
  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Toyota is using permanent magnet motors for the secondary. This will introduce magnetic braking loses when they aren't driving the car.
     
  19. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Tesla actually takes a higher hit on AWD models. Perhaps you are doing an apples vs. oranges comparison. If you compare LFP vs NMC batteries, you may get biased results. Here is a comparison with the same battery type.

    Compare side by side: Tesla Model 3 LR RWD vs. LR AWD

    Moreover, from my analysis of the EPA drag curves, Prius Prime had lower drivetrain losses (linear in speed) but Model 3 had lower aerodynamic losses (quadratic in speed).
     
    #19 Gokhan, May 24, 2024
    Last edited: May 24, 2024
  20. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    The magnetic field is not a dissipative field but a conservative field. If there is no current through the field coils that draws power, there will be no energy loss. You could see a small alternating positive and negative torque when turning the motor without a current in the field coils due to the attraction and repulsion of the rotor magnets and field-coil cores, which is known as the cogging torque, but the average torque over a rotation will be zero and there will be no power loss. Permanent-magnet EV motors use many small field-coil cores possibly in slanted shape to reduce this undesirable ripple effect in torque. For magnetic braking to happen, there needs to be a current drawn through the field coils. And when that happens, the current rechargers the battery in an EV and the energy is not dissipated on a resistor; so, even in that case, you don't lose the energy. In modern light-rail or historic electric trolleys, they use a large resistor instead of a battery; so, the braking energy is dissipated as heat in the resistor. The long story short: no field-coil current = no power loss other than mechanical friction.

    What are brake resistors? Braking-resistor solutions | ES Components
     
    #20 Gokhan, May 24, 2024
    Last edited: May 24, 2024