Long term effects on battery by rapid charging (ie: in 15 minutes?)

Discussion in 'EV (Electric Vehicle) Discussion' started by prius_noob, Sep 9, 2016.

  1. prius_noob

    prius_noob Member

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    So VW are supposedly releasing a new car that gives you a 300 mile range and charges in 15 minutes:

    Volkswagen’s 2019 electric car said to get 300 miles on a 15-minute charge | TechCrunch

    This brings issues. like "Holy shit. Look at that immediate load on the grid" It would bring the entire grid down if we all used electric cars, especially when we're charging them in 15 minutes or less... that is unless these 15 minute chargers are perhaps using a more..commercial grid, using their own transformers- something purpose built for electric cars by car/energy companies.

    Though I don't also know what the long term effects are happening to the battery, because of such rapid charging a battery like this. Does any one have a clue about this? Are there long term issues one should be aware of?
     
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  2. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Even if capable of a 15 minute charge for 300 miles, the cars are going to be doing over 90% of their charging at home or at work, and doing it slowly. The fast chargers will use a commercial supply, and maybe even capacitors or flywheel energy storage for a buffer. Commercial users are already sucking down loads of power for some uses.

    Constant quick charging cane be bad for the battery. It depends on how how well it is cooled during charging. Nissan warns against regular quick charging, but the Leaf's pack is passively air cooled. There is also the factor of how much buffer capacity is in the battery.
     
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  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    more vdub hype. the hype machine is done with diesel, so they've moved next door.
     
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  4. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    There's no such thing as "the grid". There's no such thing as a national grid. Even regional grids, such as those owned by National Grid, are very disconnected with intermediate area grids dispersed here and there that may serve just city or town areas. In fact during some regional outages, some of the area grids were humming along just fine.


    Unsupervised!
     
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  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    If they bring this to market, it means getting the extra ZEV credits for quick refueling in California, which is worth money to them.
     
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  6. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    'if'.
     
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  7. prius_noob

    prius_noob Member

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    OK fair enough, but is it not fair to say that mass adoption of EV cars could bring down the grid locally, if there's not enough infrastructure to support such a large immediate load?
     
  8. prius_noob

    prius_noob Member

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    I'd agree with you...to an extent. That's OK and well to say in the USA, but not so OK to say in Europe. I think about half the houses in the UK are terraced houses, with no such driveway at all!

    They might be charged at work...sure, but then work would have to have enough car parking spaces - they couldn't really park in the middle any more, unless they manage to find a way to erect EV charging points directly in to the ground on a pole. Car parks may have to be re-designed. Then there's still the issue of overspill

    That and not every work place has a car park too. This is especially true in London, but you could say that in central London, there's really no need for a car in the first place.
     
  9. prius_noob

    prius_noob Member

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    I too am skeptical, however I do want this to be a reality. We will only really see what happens if this goes to market like it's supposed to in 2018/2019
     
  10. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster Brand New Prius Batteries

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    So they are going to claim that with the 800VDC 225KW chargers most likely. And there are precisely 1 of those in the world as far as I know, and only available to Porsche pre-production e-teams.

    This is just pure FUD. Commercial buildings use a ton of power all the time. The few people at these quick chargers would barely be noticeable. As already mentioned, very few people are going to quick charge. EVs plug in at home or work and charge slowly. I like to say that my Leaf has been on or charging for 3 straight years. When parked it charges at L1 speeds adding 4-5mi/hr and yet it manages to keep on going and going and going. Most people don't realize how often a car sits parked and how little people drive.

    The high C charging (C = Coulomb in this case) is not an issue for batteries. When you charge a battery, you are really charging trillions of little tiny particles. And so the extra charge goes into a small grouping (very, very, very small considering an average phone battery has a few trillion) almost instantaneously and then it starts getting distributed to other particles around it. Essentially no matter how fast or slow you charge the battery, the actual electron charge distribution inside the battery cell is nearly the same speed. So fast charging is no problem, and some research suggests it is actually better for the battery long term.

    The actual problem is heat, always has been, always will be. This does generate heat, but the majority of the problem is from imperfections in the cell, impurities, and other material selections, etc. This causes the battery as a whole to rise in temperature which cooks the battery goo and decreases its usable capacity. This is the real problem. But this is also caused by just parking the car in the sun for long times and things like that. A good active cooling battery (unlike my Leaf) should mitigate any potential long term effects.
     
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  11. prius_noob

    prius_noob Member

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    Thanks for all that. I did think that they'd use a commercial system for the cars - ones that can actually take the load. And fair enough if that was the case. I disagree with you that most people will charge their cars at home and work, when EVs are in the mass market...in the UK, mainly because about half of us don't have driveways, and many workplaces don't even have car parks

    The bit at the end you mentioned is pretty promising news then! Especially here in the UK, where our houses are just a lot smaller than in the USA, and definitely so in developing nations. So long as the heat issue is sorted out, we dont really need to worry then which is nice!
     
  12. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    Offhand, the Tesla, Volt and Fords (IIRC) have liquid battery cooling systems.
     
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  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    It is a big incentive for them to do so in CARB states at least.

    Most charging is at night when demand is low.

    No physical reason to not have chargers kerbside for home. The hurdle is more building and parking regulations than technical.
     
  14. prius_noob

    prius_noob Member

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    Understood that bit regarding when it is charged. I also understand that slow charging won't really have an effect on the grid, but rapid charging might have an effect on the (consumer) grid

    Again the only issue there is when you're in terraced houses, technically the road outside belongs to...no body. It is a free for all. Yes, your car might be out of your house, but there's no guarantee that that will be the case. I guess you could "log in" as such to the charging point and pay accordingly

    Also, sorry but what are the CARB states?
     
  15. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    The bigger long term problem if everybody drove EV's is that there would not be enough charging stations to supply the juice on major highways....but we are quite far from that day. If everyone in your neighborhood had a Tesla there could be some local needs to beef up substations etc. depending on local loads.
     
  16. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    This fast charging won't affect residential grids, because they will build along the lines of Tesla's Superchargers most likely; one location with many chargers. As such, they will be serviced on the commercial level.

    Which is why I say parking regulations is a hurdle. Change them so that a home has an assigned spot, and allow the home owner to install a level 2 slower charger there.

    California Air Resource Board. CARB states are ones that have signed up to use California's stricter emission requirements for cars. CARB has a ZEV program which will force auto makers to sell BEVs and/or FCEVs, buy the ZEV credits from someone that has extra. Quick refueling, like charging in 15 minutes, is worth, IIRC, 4 credits on top of what the BEV is worth, which might be under 4.
     
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  17. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    more demand may be our only hope for grid modernization.
     
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  18. prius_noob

    prius_noob Member

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    Hmmm this is one thing the UK has been really good at. We seem to have them across quite a few motorway stations. Maybe because we're a small country, we can do this fairly easily compared to the USA

    Well not just a Tesla, but any car that uses about 85Kw of electricity ie: cars that have a beefier range
     
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  19. prius_noob

    prius_noob Member

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    What if you have two cars? I guess you do tend to have a front and back usually. You'd still need to be able to "log in" however, because well people can just steal your electricity. In the case of us, we have our house, and the house next door which we've put up for rent (Neither of the people in it have a car) We technically have four parking spaces, but technically also...none
     
  20. Felt

    Felt Senior Member

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    trollbait - I'm back with another question .... I told you that you are my go-to source with questions.

    I'm really on the fence about lithium batteries. Understand .... I was 100% satisfied with my 2010 Prius NiCad (I can't think of the correct term). It performed flawlessly; when traded at 130k it shows no reduction in potential; when the charge was down (usually from listening to the radio while my wife shopped), it charged immediately; I was never aware of the battery, or even where it was located. And still, I got a lifetime average 52 plus mpg (calculated).

    I'm just not sure that for all I read about lithium ... over heating, fires, longevity, rapid charging ..... for 22 mile range (in the Prime) not to mention reports that the cost will start at the high end of the lift back .... I'm hesitant to say the least. I've made it no secret that I am watching and reading about the Ioniq .... it has a lithium battery. Right now .... I would more interested if it didn't.

    I know Samsung's lithium phone batteries are a completely different issue .... but this thread about rapid charging enlarges my questions and concerns about lithium. It appears that automotive lithium batteries introduce a great deal more complexity, cooling issues, charging, degradation over time ..... all for 22 miles? Is this a question where the industry is catering to the public's demand for the latest .... when the greatest may have been the older technology?
     
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