Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers...

Oh yeah, one more thing. The Infinity speakers come with two mounting rings so they will fit.

 

ooh thanks for the link to the polks i want some polks but i dont have enough money for the Momo's so i was just going to save up but i didnt know how to install it so that would be a problem too. i like techno too.. well more like trance. tell me how your polks sound when you get them installed!

ok just looked back on ebay. the momo's which are their best currently... are only 165 buy it now. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...870866&tc=photo
the retail price is over 300 so i think this is a SUPER good deal. THey are the component momo's which you can use on both front band rear seats since you have the premium JBL. i think each box comes with two speakers and tweeters and also crossovers. I THINK!!!

ask the seller if there are two speakers and tweeters etc before you buy... if you do. in fact i think ill ask right now

 

Replacement Speakers

I thought that the stock speakers were 2 ohms impedance. Did you have any problems when you installed 4 ohm speakers? Did the volume level change?



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusenvy\";p=\"104060)</div>

My experience is quite different from yours. And those rear speakers are such total pieces of crap, I can't believe that you heard no improvement - unless the speakers you installed were too difficult of a load for the JBL electronics to drive.

I've got the JBL 9-speaker system and it used to sound so bad, I actually stopped listening to it. It was so bad I'd rather just turn it off. This weekend the local Circuit City had Infinity 6010cs component speakers on sale for $50 off, so I had them install a pair in the front (they only had one pair at the store I went to). Huge difference. I've had these speakers in other cars, powered by separate power amps, and liked them for the price. Although the sound in the Prius isn't as good as in my other cars (due to the crappy electronics), it's still a big improvement. The sound quality is now acceptable and I've begun listening to the stereo again. The rear speakers now sound even worse by comparison (I didn't think that was possible), so I'll be installing another pair of 6010cs speakers next weekend. I'll probably buy them on Ebay and install them myself, rather than have to wait around Circuit City for 90 minutes. I still have to try disconnecting the center speaker, and I'll install a Bazooka subwoofer as soon as the special wiring harness is available (too lazy to figure it out on my own, pitiful for someone with an EE degree).[/b][/quote]

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

hey kev - i have one recommendation - GO WITH INFINITY !

esp if you can use them to deliver the highs and you have a sub to carry the bass (which i think i read you do in your prior posts).

i replaced all speakers in my non-JBL system and am ecstatic with the results (i also added an alpine amp and kenwood mini-sub). i am also a techno and 'chill' music fan - paul oakenfold sounds fantastic.

i posted extensive info re: speaker replacement - see link below.

http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-speaker-...rky-vt9542.html

 

Re: Replacement Speakers

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(motnamser\";p=\"104424)</div>

I can definitely play the stereo louder with the new speakers, but I don't know if they're any more efficient (plays louder at the same volume setting). If they are, it's a slight difference, not dramatic.

The impedence is supposed to be a measure of how difficult the speaker is to drive - low impedence = bigger current draw, which a lot of amps can't supply. But you have to remember that 1) speaker impedence varies with frequency, and 2) speaker impedence isn't a purely resistive load, there's a reactive component as well. So one simple number doesn't capture all of the data. In any event, a higher impedence load is usually easier to drive, since for the same power it's requiring less current from the amplifier.

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

Do you think you can get enough bass improvement by simply replacing the stock speakers with some good Infinity Kappa speakers rather than adding the subwoofer?

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

Define "enough".

IMHO a subwoofer is still needed, but it's not the speaker's fault. I've heard sufficient bass out of these speakers to make a subwoofer optional, but that was when driven with a high powered aftermarket amplifier. The bass should be better in the Prius than it is with the Infinity speakers. I attribute the fact that it isn't to mediocre electronics.

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

OK, here's my custom-audio issue, lol:

I just had a fairly over-priced system professionally installed (50wX4 amp, components, co-ax, custom fabricated enclosure for neat hide-away 10" sub). $450 labor alone..

The front components are amped and play substantial mid-range/low (i've set the pass filter to play down to about 80 hz.) But the right side door rattles quite disruptively when volume set at about 35 and over. Left side OK?? hmmm..

The rear 50w rms rated co-ax speakers are not amped but they hardly produce any sound when sound is tested to play for rears only - even when volume is up to 40+! hmmm..

The hide-away cargo fit sub is cool, clean design and am very happy with the workmanship given only about 3 hrs of labor and $60 charged for materials, but... the bridged 150W supposedly powering the 10" sub really doesn't produce any accurate sound and is rather loose, distorted and cheap sounding ;(

The installer has said he will swap out the sub @ no charge to test two other brands (Kicker Comp VR and an Alpine R series) but said a dedicated Dclass amp would make night and day difference for producing the crisp, accurate bass in any sub. (i'm only using the bridged 2x50w AB amp to power it).

Any insights for these issues? Why would a .03% Harmonic Distortion ABclass amp produce less accurate/tight sound than a .5% Harmonic Distortion rated, Dclass sub-amp?!? What could be solutions for the right-door-only rattles when mids are thumping??

Grateful in advance for any replies.. cheers~

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HYACK\";p=\"104631)</div>

Class AB amps waste about 40-50% of their power consumption as heat. Class D amps are more efficient, only wasting about 20-30%. That's why people use them for subs. As you noted, the trade-off can be sound quality. Of course, if you just used a bigger class AB amp you could achieve the same results with somewhat better sound quality (see below), but would be using more electricity (and generating more heat, thus requiring more cooling).

As for THD, any value less than 1% would be inaudible in a car's noisy environment. Plus, car speakers can produce as much as 5% THD (10% for subs) making the difference between amps with <1% THD a moot point.

To fix your door rattle, you could raise the cut-off freq. so the door speakers produce less bass, and/or line the door with sound damping material, and/or find the specific location of the rattle and secure it. Rattles can be a real pain.

Getting back to your sub amp, what is the impedance of the sub? I ask because a two channel amp that is stable at 2 ohms per channel needs to see a 4 ohm load when bridged. Although they aren't common, there are some 2 ohm subs out there, and if yours is 2 ohms it will cause that amp to distort (and eventually kill the amp). I doubt that's the case since you had it installed by a shop, but you never know...

 

wilco,

Thanks a million for that reply. And I get the 'moot point' about THD so I'm over that now, thanks.

OK, here's the $80 (dual 4 ohm coil?) sub I had installed: http://www.memphiscaraudio.com/products/de...tails.asp?id=49

Here's the $240 4x50w amp which was installed: http://www.memphiscaraudio.com/products/de...tails.asp?id=12

2 channels were bridged at i believe, 150w to power the sub.

Thanks so much in advance, if you could take a look at the specs and give any feedback..

And one more Q if I could: would say a 1x 250w class D amp, added to my already 4x50w amp powered system cause harm to the Prius alternator, etc, in your opinion? Excessive for the Prii or acceptable? Thanks~

 

Well again, if a shop installed the system, it should be wired right... but... there is one thing that pops into my head about that sub.

If it's a dual voice coil, and each voice coil is 4 ohms, connecting them in parallel would result in the amp seeing a 2 ohm total load for the sub. Since that amp needs to see a min. 2 ohm load per channel, it would need to see a min. 4 ohm load when two channels are bridged. So IF that's the case, that's the problem with the bad sounding sub (and is a big problem for your amp too).

If I were you, I'd check the following...

1. The DC resistance of each voice coil on the sub (if you have a meter)

2. The way the sub is connected to the amp, i.e. is it amp bridged with the sub's voice coils in parallel, or amp bridged with the sub's voice coils in series, or amp not bridged with one voice coil connected to one channel, and the other voice coil connected to another channel.

As for your second question - and this answer is only my opinion - yes, I think it would be overkill to have 450 Watts of amplification in a Prius. Not only would it place too much strain on the small 12v battery and accessory electrical system, but I don't think it's required to get good sound.

 

Thanks much for these insights, wilco..

I will have the installer do an inspection and possible sub-swap in a couple weeks and will drop questions about how my sub/amp is best connected/bridged, etc, there, when he has his eyes on it.

Until then I will just disconnect my sub.

Thanks for opinions!

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

I've been gone from this forum for a while and just saw Sparky's excellent guide to replacing speakers on the non-JBL system.

I'm interested in doing something similar with my JBL system, probably starting with replacing the front speakers with Focal 165k2p speakers (expensive but why not put in the best stuff if you are spending the time researching and doing this).

Here are some questions still I have after reading most everything I can find here.

I need to know whether the 3" depth of these midwoofers is going to be a problem. Anyone installed 3" deep midwoofs in the front? Can the window still roll down?

I assume that the front tweeters and woofers are directly connected to the amp under the seat. Anyone know the colors of the wires that connect where?

I know that someone tried to measure the frequency response of the electronics, but the results of that test seemed inconclusive to me as far as whether there was active crossovers and what type, freq, slope, etc. Anyone really know what kind of crossover if any is in the amp for the front JBLs? Specifically the real question for me is whether the amp puts a signal to the woofer that is flat all the way down, or whether it does some high-passing to limit bass output (perhaps to prevent the low quality midwoofers from over excursing?)

I'm going to try and figure this stuff out this weekend by checking out my Prius, but if anyone has already done the work that'd be easier!

 

Here is the JBL amp pin-out:

Pink ------ Pin S15-8 --- LF+
Violet ---- Pin S15-19 -- LF-
Lt Green - Pin S15-9 --- RF+
Blue ------ Pin S15-20 -- RF-
Black ----- Pin S15-4 --- LR+
Yellow ---- Pin S15-13 -- LR-
Red ------- Pin S15-5 --- RR+
White ----- Pin S15-14 -- RR-
Pink ------ Pin S15-6 --- LF+ tweeter
Violet ----- Pin S15-17 -- LF- tweeter
Lt Green -- Pin S15-7 --- RF+ tweeter
Blue ------ Pin S15-18 -- RF- tweeter
Red ------- Pin S15-3 --- C+
White ----- Pin S15-12 -- C-

The center and front tweeter outputs are definitely not full-range. They are digitally filtered by the JBL amp. As for the front mid/bass outputs, others here have posted that they are filtered as well (I have not tested this myself, but it is a pretty reasonable assertion, so I am inclined to believe it) The rear outputs are full range. The rear tweeters have 6db/octave passive high-pass filters.

That is actually the problem with the JBL system - the sound is overly-processed by the amp. No matter what speakers you use, the front outputs from the JBL amp are not good. If I were going to install drivers as nice - and accurate - as the Focals, I'd use the rear outputs from the JBL amp to power the front speakers (utilizing the supplied Focal x-overs), and use the front mid/bass outputs for the rear door mid/bass woofers, and disconnect the rear door tweeters all together (the rear tweets just mess up the soundstage anyway, and the rear woofs could just add a little "rear fill"). Of course, the trade-off here is that when someone is sitting in the back seat it won't sound very good to them, but that's better than it sounding bad to you in the front seat 100% of the time.

If you really care about the back seat sound, you could run an extra pair of wires for the rear door tweeters, connected to the JBL front tweeter outputs.

I can't comment on the fit of your lower door speakers (because I haven't removed mine yet) but the front door tweeters are very small. I suspect they will be the limiting factor when it comes to fitting aftermarket speakers.

As for whether the front and rear lower door speaker outputs are full-range, low-pass, or band-pass, I suspect that they are as I wrote above, but don't know for sure. You could burn a test-tone CD (you can get the tones free on the 'net) and measure the low freq SPL (I plan on doing this before ripping mine apart - so within the next few weeks). It may take swapping speakers to know whether you're measuring the amp output or natural speaker rolloff.

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

Thanks for the great information Wilco. I printed your email out for my experimentation purposes. I want to figure out how to test the frequency response, of the various amp outputs but I'm not sure how to get a conclusive test. Just testing the SPL of an actual woofer for various frequencies seems unlikely to be conclusive... Any 6.5" woofer is going to exhibit some significant amount of drop off between 20-100 Hz, and the shape of the car interior will cause the frequency response to not look nearly as clean as a free-air speaker test graph might look.

I was originally going to replace the speaker with a 3 ohm resistor and see how much voltage I measured across it for different frequencies. But when I tried that with my home system last night I got different voltages for different frequencies, several times lower at 40hz than 100hz. And I had all the tone controls and crossovers set so that I should have gotten a flat response. I'll try the experiment on the headphone output of a portable CD player to see if the test is invalid somehow... not sure what would be wrong with that test.


I'm hoping that the front JBL midwoofer outputs really are full range (or perhaps just with minor equalization to match the car's interior response), and then I could put the Focal passive crossovers by the amp, driven off the front woofer outputs, and use the original wiring to the midwoofer and tweeter, moved from the amp contacts to the crossovers.

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

Never mind my comments above about the "voltage across three ohm resistor in place of speaker" test being invalid. I tried it again and got consistent voltages (within 30% or so) from 20 to 10kHz on my home system without the preprocessor in the path, so I must have had some settings wrong originally.

 

Test Result: Frequency Response off of the amplifier

I just put up web page with the frequency response of the various JBL system amplifier outputs. My test confirms what many had already anecdotally noticed: that the amplifier doesn't put out much low bass.

There is also information on disassembling the doors, some photos of what you will see when you do, audio system specs, and a link to the schematic.

It's all here:

http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/priusaudio/

 

Re: Looking to upgrade the JBL "premium" speakers.

Hello Tom,

Thanks to you and so many other Prius owners who've figured out much of the confusing circuitry of our JBL system. I am amazed at the depth of knowledge about the Prius.

Last week I had an installer (the younger brother of the owner) put in the Blaupunkt TSc 660 component woofer/tweeter combination. After it was done, I picked up the car, and we listened to it, both agreeing that it wasn't very good. Since it was closing time, I decided to try it out for the weekend, then was going to have them removed this week. What I found:
1. There is no sound from the tweeters. The woofer/midrange just below made me think the tweeters were working. I was certain they were out when I unplugged the center speaker.
2. The one-press window down functionality is gone.

On Monday, I'll contact the owner (an independent who works with Toyota dealers in our area) to see if he can make it right.

What I'd like to know though, is if anyone has the TSc660 speakers and what they think? How is the tweeter to be wired? If I need to remove/exchange the Blaupunkts, the threads have been mentioning the Infinity speakers. I am primarily interested in mid and upper range, so let me know if you've seen an improvement with Infinity or Polk in <$200 range for the components.

Thank you again.

 

miketoyo,

just did a quick ref check and your Blaupunkts are priced at $40 for the set, new (plus nominal shipping, on crutchfield)! Just curious what your installer charged you for them?

You are now upping your potential market (for replacements) to $200 for the set?

OK, well, do you want a new product from authorized dealer (with warranty, service, etc), or just want best bargain (w/risks attached) from whatever website vendor, Ebay, etc??

$200 will give you an entry level infinity component set (New and authorized), which I can't say I've heard demonstrated, but Infinity by definition is a good product.

I just had a $220 component set + rear co-ax (under warranty and excellent customer service) from Memphis installed (powered w/4x50w amp) and couldn't be more satisfied thus far. Good mid and high for my ears at least (not a $400-500 component set), but great for the soundstage I wanted to have in my Prius.

In all honesty, I'm not happy with the entry-level 10" sub they installed and will be taking it in for replacement/upgrade next weekend.

Anyway, you'll definitely end up spending more cash then you wanted to or can afford if you let yourself

 

Hi Hyack,

Nice to know you're online at 11:00 p.m. Actually, got the Blaupunkt's from Crutchfield, as I had them years ago and the midrange (in my 1979 Toyota Supra, if I recall) was outstanding. The midrange is not bad, bass definitely clearer, but again, with no tweeter, not able to assess true performance. Would like to say, though, that the stock rear setup is not bad, once separated from the fronts. Hopefully, someone will give me some feedback on the Infinity/Polks if the TSc660 tweeter isn't great. The installer indicates they can get hold of factory fresh units at a 'reasonable' cost. Wouldn't mind replacing the center speaker with a good, small midrange also.

Thanks for the quick reply.