Lutz + Fisker = Dr. Kevorkian + dead

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by bwilson4web, Jan 23, 2013.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Two articles:
    Source: Episode 1053 – New Chairman for Toyota, Big Rigs = Big Sales, Lutz’s Version of Karma – Autoline Daily

    The second choice:
    Source: Why I'm 'Desecrating' Fisker's Beautiful Electric Sedan With A Brawny Gasoline Engine - Forbes

    I have never been a fan of Fisker because it had too much eye-candy and too little engineering. For example, at the 2009 Detroit Auto Show, I asked the young lady about the synthetic noise generator and she replied "Oh, the synthetic whore." ... her accent converted 'synthetic roar' into an accurate description. Their stage was all eye-candy, no engineering, and this was three years ago.

    As for Lutz, the operative word is "vengeance" which not doubt he will take to his grave. The Hummer is long since gone; the two-mode is history; the BAS hybrids a fraud; the EV1 crushed; Saturn is just a planet, and; he regrets the Volt power train was not put in an SUV. Morticians take the dead and make them look 'asleep' but this does not raise them. That is what Lutz is doing with the Fisker, expressing his spleen on what little part he could find in a hybrid market that defeated him. No tears in my eye for the Fisker, it was always 'dead man walking'.

    How different are they?
    Column 1
    0 [th]model[th]City[th]Hiwy[tr][td]Corvette[td2]16[td2]26[tr][td]Karama[td2]20[td2]21[tr][td]-[tr][td]Volt[td2]35[td2]40[tr][td]Prius[td2]51[td2]48
    Source: Fuel Economy

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    EV wolf under sheep skin?
     
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  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Funny you should mention "sheep skin." When I visited the Detroit Auto Show in 2009, I was struck by how little engineering was evident compared to the 'sheet metal art.' The best booths:
    • Denso - Japanese electronics including collision avoidance and pulsed, fuel injection systems for lower diesel noise and particulates.
    • Toyota - the largest number of chromed, turning engine models and open hoods.
    • Ford - second largest number of chromed, turning engine models
    • Hyundai's 'blue motion' cut-away
    • People's Republic of China, Stalinist design bureau copy of a Toyota HSD
    Everything else was non-engineering which meant boring. I would rather go to any Art Museum as see those pathetic excuses for sheet-metal 'art.'

    Bob Wilson

    ps. Or a titty-bar as talk to the Fisker eye-candy presenters.
     
  4. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    The only Karma for Fisker is that they're getting theirs when they tried to run off with Tesla ideas after parting company with them. I smelled arrogance a half decade ago from their people. Nothing new here.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/15/technology/15tesla.html?_r=0

    As defendants, Fisker was able to tap dance their way out of court when sued by Tesla for trying to rip off some of their design/technology. Fine, but Karma is still Karma. I happened to walk by their Irvine store even yesterday, only because it's right next to Best Buy - where I went to get a 26" LED TV (only 23 watts !!! woo hoo !! :) ) - I walked into the Karma shop and the snobs wouldn't even make eye contact w/ me, much less try and see if I were a prospective customer. And now Lutz wants make it into just another guzzler? Pathetic and too funny at the same time. Hey, maybe he can buy into Toyota and drop a hemi into the Prius too.
    .
     
  5. walter Lee

    walter Lee Hypermiling Padawan

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    LOL :LOL:
    RFLOL :ROFLMAO:

    Ole Bob Klutz shows his true colors? no? :rolleyes:

    I was never under the impression Klutz's heart was into saving the environment or fuel efficiency. His meddling into the Volt design made it worst (Klutz suffers from Dunning Kruger syndrome - he's under the false impression that money and power make him smarter and more skillful than he really is - when in fact all it does is amplify the effects of his blundering about :rolleyes: )
     
  6. walter Lee

    walter Lee Hypermiling Padawan

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    I agree that dog and pony shows like the Detroit Auto Show often don't have much in engineering substance. ;) :cautious: However, in their defense it's hard to demostrate engineering aspects of fuel efficiency and performance in a static enviroment (without looking like a Science Fair - rather than a consumer/retail showcase which btw that what it is ). :barefoot: This is especially true when competiing corporations don't want to share or give up any "trade secret" or details on how their technology works. :coffee:
     
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  7. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    As I've mentioned to you before in private messages, you should REALLY go to Tokyo Motor Show. It now runs every other year and from TOKYO MOTOR SHOW WEB SITE, it'll be going on this year.

    At least in the 3 Tokyo Motor Shows I've attended, when it was held at Makuhari Messe, there is plenty of both "sheet metal art" and engineering related stuff, well, at least plenty of parts on display including working models (such as of transmissions). It had at least an order of magnitude more (maybe 2-3 orders of magnitude) in terms parts on display than that 09 Detroit Auto Show/NAIAS.

    It's now moved to a different venue, so I can't speak for certain as to parts vendors and suppliers. Look at parts, machinery and tools under List of Exhibitors | BOOTH GUIDE | TOKYO MOTOR SHOW.

    That last one I was at was in 09. Parts, Machinery and Tools / Governments | List of Exhibitors | Booth Guide | TOKYO MOTOR SHOW WEB SITE shows what they had in that department.

    Oh yeah, there was also plenty of Japanese eye candy. :D(y)
     
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    To visit the Tokyo autoshow, near as I can tell:
    • $1,700 - air fare
    • $2,400 (6*$400) - hotel
    • $600 (6*$50) - meals beverages
    • $4,700 - total
    This does not include tickets and assumes bus/subway around town.

    Bob Wilson
     
  9. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    I'm not sure if you're talking about traveling alone or w/your wife. I've only gone alone as I have no wife. :(

    It looks like your airplane ticket price is currently about right for a single person. I guess it's much pricier to fly from Alabama. In 09, I made this trip (I went to both Korea and Japan, had to make a stop in Japan on the way to Korea, IIRC) for $903.50 in total for the airplane tickets, including tax and fees:

    Seattle (SEA) to Tokyo (NRT)
    10/27/09 2:26 PM - 5:00 PM
    UNITED 875
    ----------
    Tokyo (NRT) to Seoul (ICN)
    10/28/09 6:15 PM - 9:15 PM
    UNITED 891
    ----------
    Seoul (ICN) to Tokyo (NRT)
    11/01/09 12:15 PM - 2:25 PM
    UNITED 890
    ----------
    Tokyo (NRT) to Seattle (SEA)
    11/06/09 5:30 PM - 8:58 AM
    UNITED 876

    I've gotten Travelocity email fare alerts in 2011 for San Jose, CA to Tokyo roundtrip with amounts ranging from (these are starting prices) $371 (!) to $896. Unclear about time of year though. I got one on 3/22/12 for $1251.

    Hotels are not that insanely expensive in Japan, if you shop around. I thought that too before I made my first trip. It's not impossible to find hotels for <$100 US/night that are clean, safe (but w/tiny rooms, but US standards). I've stayed at numerous hotels in/around Tokyo that were under $100 or not much above. Last time, I stayed at Room / Charge | Tokyu Stay Monzen-nakacho. With the current exchange rate, the single rooms are 7900 to 12600 yen, or $87 to ~$139/night in USD.

    From looking at email, when I went, there was some special going on for certain days. Some of my nights were 5,500 yen/each and others were 7,600/yen. It was within a short walk of a subway station. My room at that hotel also had a washer and dryer so I didn't need to bring as much clean clothing. The room rate also included breakfast.

    As one of my friends who used to go to Japan on business a lot, over there, unlike in the US, even if you pick a cheap place, you won't get totally screwed in terms of a room (as in, getting a hell hole) like you would in the US.

    $50/day per person for food and beverage is a bit too high. I didn't spend that much. Maybe budget for $20-$40. The food at Makuhari Messe (where TMS was held in the past) was surprisingly not a ripoff, unlike at US trade shows. There's no tipping in Japan either. :) I don't recall paying more than $20 USD for a decent sit down meal, even when the exchange rates were horrible for me 09. Prices were much better in 01, when the exchange rates were MUCH better.

    I've never taken the bus in/around Tokyo except to take the "airport limousine" (actually a bus) once or a few times to go to the airport. It's not a good idea to take the bus in certain Japanese cities if you don't speak and read Japanese. I think Tokyo is one of those. I've always taken JR trains (mostly above ground commuter trains, http://www.jreast.co.jp/e/info/map_a4ol.pdf) and the subway (Tokyo Metro | Subway Map).

    I have taken the bus in Kyoto before as the subway isn't well developed there and the bus gets you to most of the tourist attractions. Over there, you get on from the rear and exit from the front, paying as you leave.

    If you want to discuss Japan travel, start up a thread in FHOP. I can post more there. :) I'd be happy to post info on all the Tokyo area hotels I've stayed at and the single hotel in Kyoto I stayed at. Whenever I went to Japan, I'd also always do some other sightseeing other than going to a trade show.
     
  10. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    "Down To The Wire: Fisker Wants Partner By Next Month!
    The clock continues to tick for Fisker Automotive, which hasn't built any cars for roughly six months now.
    The company's new CEO, Tony Posawatz, has said Fisker is seeking a partner--some might say savior--that it can work with to help launch the Fisker Atlantic mid-size sedan it unveiled at last year's New York Auto Show.

    Under the most optimistic scenarios, that's unlikely to happen until 2015, and Fisker will run out of cash long before that." Down To The Wire: Fisker Wants Partner By Next Month
     
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  11. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    This EREV is sinking.
     
  12. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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  13. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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  14. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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  15. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i saw my first karma in orlando the other day, it was pretty.
     
  16. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    I've gone months w/o seeing a Karma in the wild (not at a dealer or auto show). I did see one recently parked outside a bunch of auto shops and body shops. I wonder if it was there for accident repairs.

    I think the last times I saw them were once near Alt Car Expo (it wasn't part of the show) and I saw one parked in Pebble Beach.
     
  17. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i was looking in my rearview mirror and thought, wow! what's that? had no idea until he passed me. stunning. as bob said, "it's all in the sheet metal'. and boy is he right.
     
  18. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I saw two in town last week, which was the first time I saw one in the wild. They look really good, but that doesn't mean they drive as well as they look. Fisker is a great designer, but greely and dongfen don't look like they want to invest
    Chinese Bidders Balk at Fisker Automotive's Sales Terms - WSJ.com
    Greely didn't like the fact that management wanted to tap the DOE loan, it appears fisker objected to that also.
     
  19. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    ^^^
    Uh oh. Last night, it looked like Dongfeng might win by default due to Geely backing out. It'll be interesting to see if it all falls apart and Fisker files for bankruptcy.
     
  20. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I don't know. I don't understand management fighting both Fisker and bidders about taking the loan money. Sure it might make less dilution, but a larger percent of nothing is worse than a smaller percent of a going concern.

    Obamacar: Bad Karma For Taxpayers - Forbes
    I feel that some of this is over the top, but the DOE should step in and say the loan is already technically in default, no more money. That would possibly pave the way for fisker to come back, a bidder to buy, and the US to possibly get some of the loan money back.

    I don't know if fisker management can survive a takeover anyway. They have made some bad mistakes. I really don't get why they blocked JCIs bid for a123. If they had just let JCI take over they would have had a battery supplier up and running now, and would not have pissed off many members of congress that A123 was forced to be sold to the Chinese.
     
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