Major Alaskan oil field shutting down

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NuShrike @ Aug 7 2006, 02:05 PM) [snapback]299180[/snapback]</div>

This won't be an issue to the voting public (unfortunately!) until it hits them in the pocketbook. I can't force anybody else to vote the way I do, so don't blame me. I'd MUCH RATHER that the administration we have takes responsibility for the public they have sworn to lead, but since they won't, this is the next best thing.

 

Well, our gas prices haven't gone up yet, as of about 2 hours ago when I filled our Prius. We're still at a low price of $2.93/gallon.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Aug 6 2006, 11:14 PM) [snapback]298843[/snapback]</div>

Too bad ANWAR is not up and running

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GreenFarmBoy @ Aug 7 2006, 01:00 PM) [snapback]299137[/snapback]</div>

Yes, it is painful for low-income people, but who on minimum wage buys an Excursion? They're much more likely to have a used Escort & ride-share. My 1987 Nissan Sentra got 34 mpg in the city and 40 on the highway. My wife's old 1996 Sentra got about 32 and 37, I bet it's gone down again since then.

One of the reasons I bought a Prius was not to save money, but to show auto-makers there was an interest by new-car-buyers in cars with high fuel economy. Why did we lose the ability to sell cheap high-mileage cars here in the States? (As compared to Europe or Asia where there is a plethora of choices for cars that get better than 30mpg). I bought a Prius because I knew others who wanted good mileage couldn't, so I wanted to vote for them. If I was being purely selfish, I would've gotten a used Matrix and saved a lot of money (although I would have to again deal with comments like "you could've afforded a much better car than that").

As for raising minimum wage, I think that's a good thing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Aug 7 2006, 11:07 AM)</div>

The money will come from somewhere, whether it's increased wages or lessened taxes. Lowering taxes would either increase our deficit (a popular Republican choice the last couple decades) or raise the taxes of the middle class and wealthy, or reduce the things that our government can do. Hate to surprise you, but somebody making $45k, even a single parent of two, is not considered poor, so we're not talking about that category.
When you get down to it, what we pay for goods and services is a mix of two things - human labor or energy costs (even something tangible like metal comes from free rock (in select locations), but takes oil to run mining equipment, refineries, shipping, etc.). So now with higher energy prices, inflation will happen no matter what. The tendency of business owners is to reduce their other costs, and that might include wages paid to their lowest-level workers who are slightly above minimum. Raising the minimum would protect that, and protect their ability to purchase necessities. Remember, a lot of these people are kids working their way thru college, if they can't pay enough of their college (it'll never pay for all of it these days, except part-time in a community college with some financial aid options) then they drop out of college and that leaves our country in a worse situation.
OTOH, if it's too much of a hike, some weak businesses could fail (or rely on illegals who can't complain), but how much does the average product cost depend on the lowest tier of workers? I really don't think inflation would be a killer from this bill. How much of inflation comes from the multi-million dollar packages CEOs and other execs get, even those fired for poor performance? A few million dollars could be spread out between a whole lot of their workers at the minimum wage level.

Well, this got long enough. And it has nothing to do with BP. Sorry.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Aug 7 2006, 03:48 PM) [snapback]299237[/snapback]</div>

ANWR (Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, pronounced, but not spelled, 'anwar' by some), would probaby use the same pipeline, so it would face the same problems. Well, actually, the pipeline would need to be expanded, so it would be a new set of pipes, but it wouldn't change the current scenario, unless they had built the new pipes before building the new wells, so it would have empty room.

ANWR will be opened up at some point in time, I'm sure, but later is probably better, since we'll need it more a couple decades from now than we need it now. It's our savings account (that and offshore Prudhoe Bay) for the really rainy days to come. Also, later we'll have better environmental controls and technologies than now.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Aug 7 2006, 12:44 PM) [snapback]299203[/snapback]</div>

Totally agree with you but I think there is a right way and a very wrong way to do it. Unfortunately I think we are headed for the wrong way.

 

Consider this: if the government had slapped a sizable tax on fuel the last time we had an energy crisis in the 70s and 80s and invested it in cleaning the environment and funding public transportation, we'd be in much better shape now. The price of oil would probably we way less than it is now, and there'd be more transportation options and less global warming. With that perspective doesn't it make sense to invest in our future now?

Any kind of major lifestyle disruption causes pain, but the sooner we face up to it the less painful it'll be.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Aug 7 2006, 09:07 AM) [snapback]299050[/snapback]</div>

Uh, if you are earning minimum wage you already pay ZERO federal income taxes. In fact, if you have children, you are eligible for the "Earned Income Tax Credit" which pays you money when you haven't paid any in to the system at all.

Most people do not work long at the minimum wage; if you stay at a job that starts at minimum wage for 10 years, with annual 5% pay increases, you double your hourly rate. Most places today are giving between 2 - 4% annual raises to the bottom wage earners, but its still a substantial amount above minimum wage after a few years.

There are a ton of studies out there, and statistics can be made to say nearly anything you want, but there are some studies that look pretty sound that show an increase in minimum wage usually results in increases in unemployment. Of the very people we are trying to help.

A person working for minimum wage can probably afford to quit their job and get one closer to home ... after all, no job can pay them LESS. The people the rise in gas prices hurts the most is the lower middle class who often buy cheaper cars that are gas hogs. They really can't afford to buy a new car, much less a Prius. And if you do the math between a $5,000 gas hog and a $24,000 Prius, gas would have to be much, much higher for it to make sense even IF they could qualify for a new car.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Aug 8 2006, 12:10 AM) [snapback]299466[/snapback]</div>

True, the solution is to use the new energy/carbon tax proceeds to quickly address mass transportation & nasty old car buy-backs for the terribly poor. My opinion is that Prius will be the "Lexus" of the next 10 years, as its utility vs. resale value vs. carbon output proves to be a winning formulation.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(deh2k @ Aug 7 2006, 10:42 PM) [snapback]299412[/snapback]</div>

What are you, some kind of Godless Commie!!

Yes, of course. No need to look further than Norway for some long sighted thinking.

What happend, Republicans? Now its always too little, too late.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Aug 7 2006, 10:13 AM) [snapback]299012[/snapback]</div>

:angry: grrrr

I really am ticked at this post!

WHEN YOU CANNOT BUY A DARN PRIUS WITHOUT WAITING 4 WEEKS OR A CAMBRID WITHOUT WAITING 6 WEEKS then the normal population that WANTS something **IS** punished by the high $$ of GAS!

I am trying to buy a Cambrid for my In-Laws and a Prius for my father. I cannot GET EITHER IN THE BAY AREA without a 4-6 week wait! So, what you are saying is that I deserve to be punished by high $$ at the pump even though I cannot get the darn cars I want (and love)!

Not right! You are flinging so left-wing on this response!

No, Americans are not paying "What gas costs", however, who let oil (over the last few years) go from $20-ish a barrel to almost $80 a barrel!!?? We refuse to tell OPEC where to shove their high priced oil! It is not a factor of Americans not wanting to tell OPEC where to shove their high-priced oil (mostly due to the 'environmental costs' of drilling for it ourselves), it is a factor of Americans NOT BEING ABLE to tell them where to shove their high-priced gas! The cause of high-priced oil sits JUST AS MUCH with tree-huggers and environmentalists as it does with the administration that you so obviously have a problem with. We cannot drill here; No, don't put the oil rig on my beach; You want to build WHAT SIZE oil tanker? These are all valid causes for high oil prices too.

Even though I make over $250k/year in my household, I feel the pain of gas price increases. Take this "Help the poor" attitude elsewhere. REALLY, what *poor* person can afford a $25k to $35k Prius/Cambrid!? They cannot afford them! More people *buying* hybrids WILL help, however, more people *trying* to buy them will not! The people you are crying out to help are the people who cannot afford Prii and Cambrids!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jann @ Aug 7 2006, 11:37 PM) [snapback]299482[/snapback]</div>

Sheesh, chill out. Poor you, making over $250K and you have be PUNISHED while waiting 4-6 weeks until you can buy a fuel efficient vehicle. Brother!!!!!!!!

Man are you short-sighted!

Did you even read my post? I'm not complaining about the high prices. I'm GLAD about them. It will be painful for us all in the short run, but beneficial in the long run.

Grrrrrr!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Aug 7 2006, 11:49 PM) [snapback]299488[/snapback]</div>

I knew you were happy about the high prices.

I was making a point that maybe people that were begging for high-prices cos it helped us (in the long run) did not think about the fact that those they thought it would help--it would actually hurt.

and, yes, 4-6 weeks is too long for ANY car! If they would like to sell them to me, they should be ON THE LOT!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jann @ Aug 8 2006, 12:37 AM) [snapback]299482[/snapback]</div>

Try and get out some - you will find them out there for less.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jann @ Aug 8 2006, 12:37 AM) [snapback]299482[/snapback]</div>

Huh?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jann @ Aug 8 2006, 12:37 AM) [snapback]299482[/snapback]</div>

Spoken like a crack addict - blame the dealer when you are one who is hooked.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jann @ Aug 8 2006, 12:37 AM) [snapback]299482[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, blame those people who aren't in power. Waaahh wahh wahhh! Quit whiinng. Republicans are in power - blame those shortsighted f*cks.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jann @ Aug 8 2006, 12:37 AM) [snapback]299482[/snapback]</div>

If you earn over 250k/year then gas prices do not affect you nearly as much as poor people. Try and empathize once in a while with those earning $12k/yr. :blink:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jann @ Aug 7 2006, 11:52 PM) [snapback]299490[/snapback]</div>

duh!

Obviously you have enough money to fly down to L.A. where you can find a Prius on any Toyota lot, and have it shipped home. Is it worth getting this upset over?

 

Ok, I am sorry I have caused a raucus!!! Just dont think there is any positive in gas prices going through the roof as quickly as they are. That was it and nothing else. All of us are to blame, to different degrees, and we all are the solution. There now can someone tell me where the damn power button is??? (Just kidding!!)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jann @ Aug 7 2006, 11:37 PM) [snapback]299482[/snapback]</div>

Poor you.

Gas didn't go up yesterday. It's been going up for quite some while. I saw the writing on the wall and I'm not a rocket scientist.

I make $70,000 a year and I managed to buy a Prius. In fact, I test drove one and bought it off the lot. I did it in April of 2005. The gen II Prius has been out since 2004. Every year there are some improvments. Why did you wait so long to buy a Prius? Couldn't have been the money. If you had ordered a Cambrid when they were first announced you'd have one of those by now too. Seems you're just upset because you waited to buy and now you can't just get one off the lot.

If you did a little work you could. I don't know about the Cambrid but if you call enough dealers in ever widening circles one of them is going to have a Prius on the lot. If you don't care about package (you could certainly afford a #8) or color you should be able to find one immediately. It's a matter of how far you want to go to get it and drive it back.

Now as to oil. First....the U.S. hasn't been able to supply it's own needs for I don't know how long. At least back to Nixon. It has nothing to do with bleeding heart environmentalists. If you opened up every protected area and drilled and pumped only what is in the U.S. there still wouldn't be enough. ANWR will not make any difference. (And OPEC only supplies about 20% btw). The only way to tell OPEC where to put their oil is for Americans to change their consumption; to live within our means. The answer was to start conserving 30 years ago. Raising CAFE standards. Dumping SUVs. The Hummer should never have been marketed to the private consumer. We should have EVs at dealerships and on the streets. The U.S. also should have pushed solar, wind, geothermal, insulation, passive heating, conservation, recycling, the whole thing 30 years ago and never stopped. (Remember it was Carter that put the solar panels on the White House and Reagan that took them down.) If the U.S.had started a program in the 80's and aggressively kept with it then WE would have developed the Prius and all cars in the U.S. would be getting 50 mpg. And if they did, then we WOULD be able to tell OPEC where to shove it's oil. And with lower demand.....oil wouldn't cost $80 a barrel.

But now. The average American NASCAR fan has to do 0 to 60 in 3 seconds, have a top speed of 500 miles per hour and still haul a football team with mascot. American demands are unreasonable. You can't build a Hummer that handles like a sports car and gets 50 mpg. Choose one. We chose poorly.

America has been stupid and wasteful. We still are. And demanding that others supply us with a cheap fix or do without so we can continue our excesses is not the answer. Time for Americans to bite the bullet, cinch in their belts and do what America used to be good at....find a way or make a way. Become energy independent.

Why did the pipeline fail? Seems to me someone wasn't doing their job in inspecting and repairing and maintaining. Someone was cheap.

And it wasn't me.

I bought a Prius 18 months ago.

What's your excuse?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GreenFarmBoy @ Aug 7 2006, 01:00 PM) [snapback]299137[/snapback]</div>

You're Green, Farmboy.. and wrong...

I bought the Prius because I was paying 500 to 600 a month to drive a Diesel guzzling F250 to work and back. I bought the prius to save gas and money and am now paying 130, maybe 140. I'm a week shy of 6 months and am over 20,000 miles on the car.

Driving the Prius rather than the Ford has saved me $2,200 in 6 months. It has also saved the planet 733 gallons of fuel that would have otherwise been turned into polution. I tracked it for 5 months while I was waiting for my Prius, and then with the Prius since it showed up: http://d.spicher.home.comcast.net/prius/LifetimeStats.html

There is zero (0) upside to having driven all those miles in something that gets 17mpg when I'm getting 52 in the Prius. I need to be telling others that I am saving money and fuel in huge ways. They may be able to do something similar. I would be super adament about it if there were Prius cars on lots around here. Most people on the tollway have no business driving their Ford Expedition. It's up to them, but don't whine at me about $120 to fill it up, tight oil supply, war for oil, pinching my kids' school supply budget, can't go on vacation, etc.

Scr3w the CAFE standards. Don't make the government force you to do every move. Think for yourself boy, buy a fuel efficient car for yourself and let the car builders marketplace cause Ford and GM to make more efficient cars for the marketplace.

Would it be all bad if Ford or GM went bankrupt, Toyota bought the assets and started making their line of cars in those plants? I'm more in favor of Ford and/or GM coming out with a 50 or 70mpg car, or a car that runs on electric, water or hydrogen or whatever else besides 20mpg gas. Ramp up production and let the people decide to save gas by getting these new cars. If the Prius wasn't a 50mpg vehicle, I wouldn't own a Toyota. There's also probably no other Toyota I'd buy.

 

Wow ...

I agree with Daron here. Probably never again, so posted for posterity

CAFE is a joke. Between the cost of beauracracy, lobby strength, lack of american consumer buy-in, and manufacturer inertia, consumption legislation is doomed. I wonder how many people know that current CAFE standards are based on highway EPA *before* the 20% fudge factor decrease that gets posted on car windows ?

Americans whine when something costs more, but they holler if the guvmint tells them what to do. If common sense like taking care of the environment or independence from oil rich, hostile countries is not a cogent argument, then simply let fuel prices rise to their non-subsidized cost. It does not have to be overnight, it can be $3 -> $10 over 10 years. Just make it clear to people that their next car should have fuel economy it's TOP priority, not styling or 0 - 60 times, or ability to carry 7 people on annual vacation spent driving across the US. There is growing resentment against the repub admin currently in power, driven to a *large* degree by fuel prices of all things !! With a populace this stupid, only inevitable, guaranteed rise in fossil fuel prices will shake them out of their idiocy.

Let people start to demand subsidized public transport, 100 mpg cars, PHEV commuter cars. Let them start to query all their neighbors and co-workers looking to carpool. Let them view unbridled fossil fuel consumption as the province of the rich and politically incorrect. Make it a no brainer that kids take the bus to school and not a private car when they hit 15 years old. Make a movie out of kids 'cruising' the neighborhood or drag racing, because it is history, a footnote or America out of control.

Let people realize that it is *OK*** to walk, or take a bicycle.

I see many a corollary between American obesity and fossil fuel abuse. It will take people dying without access to healthcare before they wise up in food consumption, and it will take huge fuel bills before they accept that acting and living different is unavoidable.

It is hilarious to listen to people proclaim that if fuel rises to X.xx dollars a gallon, the economy is doomed !! I've heard the same refrain in 10% increments since oil was $40 a barrell. People will eventually have to change their lifestyle, but the economy will be fine, if not improved.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Aug 8 2006, 03:23 AM) [snapback]299532[/snapback]</div>

You know, the more I look around here, the more I am convinced that many who respond deserve the designation that we get for driving Prii--that of environmental extremists...I never said I did not own one...simply that I wished to by a Prius for my father and a Cambrid for my in-laws. Read first...then look to the user's profile and check out the car we say we drive.

Again, you are assuming I do not have a Prius. I purchased mine in March of 2004 off the lot and the reason I bought it at the time is: I was making a point to Toyota and the other companies that I would not buy what was out of stock...If you don't have it available on the lot, then don't advertise the heck out of it and say "BUY ME"--EVEN AFTER you KNOW you cannot keep production up with demand!

Doing that now.

Wrong! There wouldn't be enough LONG TERM! There WOULD be enough to get us through the current crisis while US manufacturers and companies like Toyota ramped up (given the correct tax incentives) production of Hybrids.

Agreed

Agreed...however--again--we need to realize that it was not simply the republicans siding with big business...like some have said here on the boards. (ps: libertarian here...not republican--so I am not playing favorites...) ...the Dems were in office for a long time prior to Bush, Jr. and the Dems wouldn't drill in the habitats and the Dems stopped oil rigs off our coast...remember that it is both sides that are guilty and not just one side. That is *all* I was saying. I really don't want to be flamed anymore for pointing that out! :blink:

I bought a prius EXACTLY 17 months ago! You were basing your flames on arguments you had no idea were true or not!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jann @ Aug 8 2006, 10:26 AM) [snapback]299599[/snapback]</div>

The Dems won't drill in the habitats, and the Dems stopped oil rigs off the coast [partly] because those are short term solutions that actually make the situation worse in the long run. The Dems are looking for a long term solution. You got it half right. The auto makers need to increase production of hybrids. However, they are not going to build hybrids unless there is consumer demand. There will not be (sufficient) consumer demand until gas prices go up. If we continue to open up more drilling in order to lower gas prices, then the buying public will continue to demand gas guzzling suvs and hummers, which the auto makers will continue to produce. This madness needs to stop.