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Man Based Global Warming....

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by dbermanmd, Dec 22, 2008.

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  1. Celtic Blue

    Celtic Blue New Member

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    There freo-1 goes again calling everyone else socialists and liberals. You wouldn't know a socialist from a communist, libertarian, liberal, independent, anarchist, or conservative.

    Facts? You don't know what a FACT is. What you label "fact" is primarily opinion as spewed by your dittohead leadership. You can't think for yourself and have to depend on folks dumber than a box of rocks to direct you. It's pathetic really.

    When I see posters like you start into the "I have a collection of facts, you don't" routine I know I'm dealing with someone who couldn't reason his way out of paper bag. (Puts you in good stead with the denialists though, so I'm not surprised.) Seriously, I've examined a number of heavily biased self-published historical works (hit jobs really) that bill themselves with the same wording you are using. It gets eery after awhile...are you borg?

    When someone's main avenue of attack has been reduced to writing "FACTS" in capital letters, they can safely be dismissed as a fool.

    If you want some real hard facts, look at comparisons of per capita health care expenditures in the U.S. vs. other nations. Look up the inflation rate of health care costs over the past four decades. Look up the comparison of outcomes in industrialized nations. Then look at the GOP favorite of "malpractice" by examining total U.S. expenditures on malpractice insurance for a year. I've been through these exercises before and they have helped shape my view. I'm not going to spoon feed you for two reasons: it won't do you any good (you need to learn to THINK and discover for yourself), and you wouldn't believe me anyway. Much of the hard data is difficult to uncover from all the BS opinion pieces, but you can piece together the real story if you look carefully enough.

    Thanks for proving the point about the bias of the WSJ, TWICE! Give you a little rope and you promptly hang yourself. Winning a recount is not "stealing an election" especially when unanimous decisions are involved. (I actually looked through quite a few challenged ballots online some months ago, the good Franken challenges far outweighed the number of good Coleman ballot challenges. I went into it expecting Franken's challenges would be weak and that he had lost. I came away convinced otherwise.) Better yet, the quoted section is a blog that quotes the WSJ OPINION page. Facts? You can't distinguish fact from propaganda pieces (sans author attribution) or your fantasies. Same for your health care "FACTS"...yet another WSJ rag opinion piece. Stay away from editorials and opinion pieces if you are going to label something FACT. You really make this too easy.
     
    #1401 Celtic Blue, Jul 8, 2009
  2. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    Of course he stole the election,, the MN supreme court vote 5/0 to steal it for him. You know you just can't trust those judges! Damn libs.

    Icarus
     
    #1402 icarus, Jul 8, 2009
  3. Fibb222

    Fibb222 New Member

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    #1403 Fibb222, Jul 8, 2009
  4. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    From "The American Spectator"


    "The single-payer and hybrid systems in place in every other country in the developed world have many admirable features: lower costs, universal coverage, and better health outcomes. But what ought to make us most envious is their security -- it's what they have and we desperately need. If you live in Canada or Germany or France or Japan, there are some things you need never fear. You need never fear that your insurance company will tell you it won't cover treatment for your asthma because you had asthma before they signed you up. You need never fear that you will bankrupt your family because of expensive treatments for a serious illness. You need never fear that you will find yourself without coverage after your insurer dropped you or you lost your job. You might fear getting sick, but you won't fear that your life will be destroyed by not being able to pay for getting sick.

    In the United States, unless you're over 65, extremely poor, or a veteran -- thus, already covered by a government health insurance plan -- you do have to fear all that. That's because the central pathology of our deeply pathological health-care system is that most of us have no choice but to get health coverage from an entity whose sole reason for being is to take our money and then try to avoid paying for our care when we get sick.

    That may sound harsh, but let's be realistic: The purpose of a private insurance company is to make money, as much money as possible. In this, it's like any other business. But insurance is fundamentally different from other businesses. When you buy a soda, you know exactly how much you're paying for it. And when you take your first sip, you know whether you like it or not. If the soda company wanted to give you the shaft, it would only have two ways to do it: It could give you a bad-tasting product or charge you lots of money for it. Either way, you'd only end up buying it once."

    Couldn't have said it better my self!

    Icarus
     
    #1404 icarus, Jul 8, 2009
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  5. Fibb222

    Fibb222 New Member

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    #1405 Fibb222, Jul 8, 2009
  6. donalmilligan089

    donalmilligan089 Member

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    regardless of temperature change the polution is worse and can be made better by our green cars
     
    #1406 donalmilligan089, Jul 8, 2009
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  7. acdii

    acdii Active Member

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    Notice in this article no mention of temperature as the cause. What I gleaned from this is precipitation during the winter months is lower than previous years. Lack of snow cover can indeed cause this to happen.

    Amen to that. To me pollution is a far worse issue than whether my winter is 2 degrees warmer 10 years from now.
     
    #1407 acdii, Jul 8, 2009
  8. freo-1

    freo-1 New Member

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    FYI, I have looked into the Health Care options for some time, and while I would agree that more needs to be done to work on this, Government controlled health care is not working out well in the countries that have them. The UK model is nothing we should emulate, and the Canadians are re-thinking there options. (How about some preventive health care, like getting people to lose weight and exercise?). If you think health care is bad now, wait until the government makes all your decisions about what is and is not covered. Be careful what you ask for here.

    It takes a lot of nerve to state that if one does not agree with the liberal agenda, you cannot be thinking for yourself. Have you been paying attention to the global economic picture. The liberal mantra "It's all George Bush's fault" is not going to cut it anymore. There are factual postings listed about the projection of Government deficits, and they are simply un-sustainable. If any one of us ran our households or businesses like that, we would quickly become bankrupt. Between "Cap and Tax", Health Care, and stimulus spending, we simply cannot afford it. One only need look at what's going on in California to realize that you cannot spend more than you take in. The liberal mantra is simply a foolish "class warfare" argument, and the naive who "think they know more than they actually do" buy into the fact that all will be well if we simply "tax the rich" and spend monies that provide no return on investment (How' s that working for California so far?).

    If you liberals actually studied the Cap and Trade issue, you would realize that it has already been tried in Europe, and is now being phased out. It did NOTHING to reduce emissions, and drove up inflation. I don't think that was it's intentions, but that was the result. Why don't we hear more about Nuclear Power as part of the solution. The Obama administration give it passing talk, but killed all the funding to store waste. The French "get it", as they use 80% of power from Nuclear. Besides, India has said they will not agree to any emission restrictions, China is not keen to commit to major reductions, and the science itself is coming under question. All Cap and Tax will achieve here in the US is drive business out of the country.

    It never ceases to amaze me the total lack of understanding about how the free market system works with liberals. Hell, even JFK understood that by lowering taxes and providing incentives for business, more people would be working, paying taxes, looking after their families, that the government would collect more taxes, not run huge deficits, and all would benefit. I have yet to hear from liberals how they plan to grow business so more people are put back to work. So far, the policies set forth by this administration are achieving the opposite.

    If we continue to accumulate debt, more of every tax dollar will be spent on interest, less on actual paying down of the debt, and at some point, the entire thing collapses.

    So, WHO's the folks not thinking?
     
    #1408 freo-1, Jul 8, 2009
  9. ufourya

    ufourya We the People

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    Canada's vastly superior utopian health care:

    Parliament unanimously passed the Canada Health Act in 1984 and established a single-payer, publicly-financed health care system. To ensure a true government monopoly (is there any other kind?) Canadian provinces outlawed private health insurance.

    Chaoulli v. Quebec UPDATE (June 9, 2005): In a 4 to 3 decision, the Canadian Supreme Court struck down Quebec's law that prohibits private medical insurance.
    [​IMG]​

     
    #1409 ufourya, Jul 8, 2009
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  10. freo-1

    freo-1 New Member

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    Never let it be said that liberals let little things like actual facts get in the way of the agenda.

    Remember the Soviet mantra:

    Repeat the lie often enough, and people will start to believe it.
     
    #1410 freo-1, Jul 8, 2009
  11. freo-1

    freo-1 New Member

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    Sorry, but I do not think one can have such a pious attitude. That sounds too much like Neville Chamberlain and his "Peace in our Time" mantra.

    If you recall, that approach did not work out too well.

    BTW, I know several Marines who are getting out as well, but it has to due with a lack of faith in the current President.
     
    #1411 freo-1, Jul 8, 2009
  12. ufourya

    ufourya We the People

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    I'm not saying that there are NOT problems. In fact, I agree that there are. What I am saying is that turning the problems over to a government that regularly cobbles together 'solutions' in committees that are run by politicians, placed before other politicians and voted on before anyone has time to read the bill, is a disaster in the making.

    We need REAL transparent discussions including ALL the parties involved - the public, the industry professionals, the insurers, etc., and then hash it out in public. The elctorate should be informed before another unworkable scheme is pushed down their throats.

    We know from historical example after example that governments ARE the problem, not the solution. Here is what our government has done TO us, not for us. Now, with the proposal to add onother couple of boondoggles in the form of 'cap and trade' and universal health care, how much more can the country take?

    If Obama is intent on bankrupting us and dragging us down to the level of his banana rrepublic buddies, Chavez, the Castros, etc,. he's doing a sterling job. God save us from the ministrations of our new king (PBUH).

    What is the Real National Debt?

    [​IMG] ​
    "How exactly does a $56.4 trillion bill add up?" you ask. We know that the federal government carries both publicly held debt and debt for money it has borrowed from itself. Together, these sums are closing in on $11 trillion. This is the figure most commonly cited as our "national debt," but actually, that's only the start of the REAL national debt.
    Right now, you are carrying a burden of about $184,000. That is each and every American's share of the US government's approximated $56.4 trillion in current obligations. And every year in which no down payments or reforms are made to these obligations, the total grows by $2 trillion to $3 trillion – or $6,600 to $10,000 per person – on autopilot.
    How exactly does this $56.4 trillion bill add up? First, there are the federal government's known liabilities that it is legally obliged to fulfill. These include publicly held debt, military and civilian pensions and retiree health benefits. As of September 30, 2008, these liabilities added up to $13.5 trillion.
    Then there are various commitments and contingencies – i.e., contractual requirements that the government is expected to fulfill when, and if specified conditions are met. These include federal insurance payouts, loan guarantees, and leases. As of September 30, 2008, they added up to $1.4 trillion.
    So where does the remaining $43 trillion or so come from? That's what the government has promised to pay in Social Security and Medicare benefits in excess of related revenues. As of January 1, 2008, current and promised future Social Security benefits amounted to $6.6 trillion. And between Medicare's three programs (hospital insurance, outpatient, and prescription drug), current and future promised Medicare benefits amounted to $36.3 trillion.
    Keep in mind that although people rely on the promise of these benefits, the government can – and does – change these programs in ways that increase or decrease the value of the expected benefits, which has the effect of expanding or shrinking the total amount of obligations. Such changes can be made to the size of payroll tax contributions, cost-of-living adjustments, beneficiary premiums, eligibility ages and benefit levels, among other examples.
    That’s how you get to $56.4 trillion. And remember: every year in which no down payments or reforms are made to any of the obligations above, this total grows by $2 trillion to $3 trillion.
    Stick with www.pgpf.org to keep track of how much you owe.
    SOURCE: 2008 Financial Report of the United States Government. Social Security and Medicare benefits are present values as of January 1, 2008. Burden per person calculated using estimated December 2008 US Census Bureau data. Other data as of September 30, 2008.
     
    #1412 ufourya, Jul 8, 2009
  13. robbyr2

    robbyr2 New Member

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    Reagan and the Bushes spend $7 trillion in borrowed money, including $3 trillion in wars that we won't win, and it's all Obama's fault that we have a budget problem. That takes a lot of nerve if you ask me.

    And not tackling a health care system costing each of us $7400 per person vs. the UK's $2700, while bankrupting Americans and delaying/denying needed medical services to millions more, is smart? I don't think so.

    I think it's amusing that Shell Oil believes in global warming and the Heritage Foundation doesn't and someone believes the later. And did you know that India could increase its CO2 output by 200% and they would still produce less than we do with less than 30% of its population? And did you know that China is building the world's largest wind farm? And how about Spain getting 20% of its electricity from wind power, with no problems? Anyone heard of Chernobyl?
     
    #1413 robbyr2, Jul 8, 2009
  14. freo-1

    freo-1 New Member

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    Thanks for your well written post.

    Sadly, folks such as Shawn do not care about facts, as they do not fit his agenda.

    Have you noticed that when the liberals rant about the heartless conservatives, they NEVER offer how they will actually pay for all this nonsense. It's also interesting how Obama lied to all of us on his tax stance. Between Cap and Trade and Health Care, he is out to destroy the economy of the US (and the world as well). His flip flop on taxing health care is most telling. When McCain proposed it, that was wrong. When he proposes it, it is suddenly OK?? At least McCain was offering a credit on Health Care.

    What is most telling is how the Congress is coming apart at the seams on how to fund Obama's Brave New World. At this rate, the Democrats are well on their way to losing their majority in the House next year.

    Here is an example of the problems with Cap an Trade:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f91e0ff4-6bf2-11de-9320-00144feabdc0.html

    1/20/2013 HOPE we have some CHANGE left in our wallets.
     
    #1414 freo-1, Jul 8, 2009
  15. freo-1

    freo-1 New Member

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    Has it slipped your mind that France gets 80% of their power from Nuclear?
     
    #1415 freo-1, Jul 8, 2009
  16. robbyr2

    robbyr2 New Member

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    Maybe the Canadians want to spend 50% more for their medical care. Then they would catch up with our spending.

    The last 3 Republican presidents are responsible for 75% of our national debt. Hopefully Americans understand that.

    Clinton raised taxes in 1993 and eliminated the budget deficit he inherited and presided over an expansion of the American economy greater than the other 3 combined.

    "A lie told often enough becomes truth" Vladimir Lenin. Sounds like a Republican talking about Obama's deficit spending to me.​
     
    #1416 robbyr2, Jul 8, 2009
  17. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    As a liberal,, I already pay for health care,,, I pay a bloated premium to a private insurance company for poor overpriced care,,, as stated a few posts above. This BS about how we "can't afford" good health care is just that. We already pay for it,, we just don't get good value for money because too much goes to un-needed overhead. To say that the $15K I pay now isn't a cost,, but a $10 single payer option is a cost is just BS as well. It comes down to a simple reality,,, you conservatives don't trust government to do anything. I personally think that government is not perfect,, but it clearly can and does provide services that "the market" or "the private sector" can or won't.

    Give me a government funded option and the bill me for the service. If my local HMO can do better, cheaper, or what ever,, then they will survive. If they can't well proof positive!

    I would pay for it by repealing the Bush era tax cuts which would yield and estimated $10 trillion in ten years. I think the economy was in surplus when he took over,,, fact!

    Icarus
     
    #1417 icarus, Jul 8, 2009
  18. robbyr2

    robbyr2 New Member

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    And as an insulin-dependent diabetic I would be without health insurance like most of the population between 45 and 65.
     
    #1418 robbyr2, Jul 8, 2009
  19. freo-1

    freo-1 New Member

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    After the last nonsense post about the deficit, thought this needed to be brought back to a more factual argument.
     
    #1419 freo-1, Jul 8, 2009
  20. Fibb222

    Fibb222 New Member

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    In Canada Government doesn't run the day to day operations of the health care system for one thing. It funds it and regulates it yes but it is run by the same kinds of professionals that run hospitals and clinics anywhere. And nearly all of our health services ARE provided by for-profit businesses including doctor and dentist practices, medical testing labs, supply companies, etc.

    The point is we spend half as much as you do per capita and we get on average way better care - care that you can count on when it really matters and that won't bankrupt you in the process.

    Yes the wealthy in the US get better care than the average Canadian but the average American doesn't. If your society would stop catering to the wealthy all the time and take better care of the average Joe's you might all benefit in the long run.
     
    #1420 Fibb222, Jul 9, 2009
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