May 21, 2011. The date of the Rapture.

Our local crackpot out of Oakland, Camping (Family Radio) had a failed prediction in '94 of end of the world. His calculations were off. He'll just say the same thing on Sunday and start recalculating.

 

What time on the 21st?

 

I think the vast majority of religious, church, mosque, synagogue going individuals listen and try to practice good basic principles in life - don't steal, lie, cheat, murder, etc.... and if it helps them live a better life and keep their family together, that is a good thing.

The opposite scenario where there are no principles - think whatever you want, do whatever you want, sleep with whoever you want married or not, lie, cheat, steal, etc.. is the basis for a crumbling society.

And for the pragmatic who live by common sense and intrinsic decency, but don't adhere to the idea of many religions and don't follow, I've no problem with them.

 

Sunrise...

 

I think I will go on sevaral substance abuse binges.
I can sober up on the 22nd, and get on with life!!

 

Agreed. Also I find it helps those cope with things better. Sort of like emotional hiding or diversion than facing it.

Example:

A loved one dies. The religious person who believes in an afterlife and also believes both the loved one and themselves are on the same moral ground to end up in the same eternal condominium complex can tell themselves that the loved one is not gone. And they will see them again some time. That is a powerful coping mechanism. Transforming sorrow into something less damaging. The atheist or religious person who's religion does not have an afterlife (or rebirth) must cope with the loss as a loss. Gone forever, ne'er to return. The opportunity to say something that you didn't get to, to confess, anything like that is gone forever. That makes dealing with it much harder. I honestly believe some people are too fragile to deal with reality and must hide behind this curtain, and if that helps them survive and carry on with their lives, then good for them. Now if it makes them give up on life to try and bring death sooner so they can meet sooner, then that is not good.

Another logical fallacy. The opposite of a religious society is not a society with no principles.

I would argue that I have better morals than most of my friends of faith. I don't do drugs, don't drink, don't smoke, rarely if ever curse, am respectful to my elders and so on. One of my good friends (who is in a christian rock band ontop of it) is extremely religious. Everything is god's doing, everything he does is for god. Same person smoked (weed and cigarettes) all throughout highschool and university and still now but less frequently. Is always drinking and cursing and fights with his mother constantly. Lots of things that are "wrong" he has no worries about. People I know through him (his friends that I just happen to see every now and then) are pretty similar and are varying levels of religiousness.

This happens for all people of all faiths (or no faith). Religions are usually filled with such violence that they would ban the book from children if it weren't what it was. If you took the bible to a fictional town that had never heard of it, it would be banned for being so violent and immoral in today's society. It gets a free pass because it is grandfathered in, that's the only reason.

 

Well said, toaster. I agree that religious belief often helps people to cope, and in that way can be a good thing. Personally, though, it seems a case of 'false hope is better than none', and the downside of it is that people often miss out on the joys of life while they're sacrificing themselves for the expected afterlife. To me, the fact that life is finite makes it all the more worth living.

And yes, I've noticed believers tend to make some bizarre assumptions about us atheists. One life-long friend who's recently converted from indecision remarked that 'things must not make much sense' to me. I said no - quite the opposite - most things make far *more* sense.

 

So where do you think these moralistic ideas came from?

Oh please... the Bible is being translated and being brought to people all around the world even as we speak in places like Papua New Guinea. Those people, like children, thirst for the truth. They are not tainted like some.

 

In regards to the statement that believe in the afterlife is a crutch to deal with the grieving and one's own death, I have a flip side.

Belief there is no afterlife apparently has enabled some to do terrible things since they don't think they will ever be accountable for their crimes. Specifically Stalin's Soviet Union with tens of millions needlessly killed. After 70 years of state atheism, this article is interesting:

Russia emerges as Europe's most God-believing nation - CSMonitor.com

Does not say organized religion is thriving, but many Russians believe in God. Nor am I implying all the irreligious toss morals out the window.


_________________________

Before someone beats me to it, al-Queda is definitely theist, but many would say they twist Islam with their promise of heavenly rewards for suicide missions. And the Nazi's had their own designer God that blessed whatever mayhem they desired.

 

Pandora's Box, open for business!

This honestly never occurred to me. Cycledrum wondered temporarily in the post above what we must think of a possibility of an afterlife, and I just couldn't help thinking, "Why would I even think about it at all?"

This is even worse for agnostics. In addition being baffled by our not having beliefs, they assume we are undecided, and just waiting for someone to tell us the answers, so we can decide already. It just doesn't work that way.

I find that most people are just not very good at not knowing (things). They will go out of their way to promote a belief or guess into a certainty just to have some answer. It must have something to do with how the typical human brain works. Mine isn't like that, and I have no problem not knowing, if knowing is not possible. It would be helpful to know whether Saturday we will have rain, sun or fireball, and if we can scientifically determine the most likely outcome ahead of time, that's great. If not, I'll just wait and see. If rain, I'll do indoor stuff. If sun, I'll do outdoor stuff. If fireball, I guess I'll play it by ear. In any case, I hope to get my grocery shopping done early.

 

Common sense. More famously Confucius' golden rule (and negative silver rule).

I don't need a big bag of fear over my head to make me do moral things. I do them because they are moral. I know I will get no personal gain, but I don't need a promise of payback to be good.

No Christian/Catholic/Whatever can ever possibly claim that their book is moral. Read it, and you will agree. Now if you cherry pick the good ones, then sure you can preach good morals.

Basically "modern" religions that practice nothing from their book are preaching Dr. Suess. All the good morals (don't lie, don't cheat, no envy, and so on) without the bad morals like stoning women, slavery, giving your daughter to strange visitors as a hoar, sacrificing children, killing people who are different, and that list goes on and on and on... Actually some people that like to over-analyze things will draw direct correlations between Dr. Suess' characters and religion. I think at one point I was told the goldfish in The Cat in the Hat was a "god figure" because it was the sound of reason while the cat was chaos. But I think that is waaaay over-analyzing a book...

Unfortunately yes. But rarely does it travel alone. The book does not speak for itself when there is some blabber head picking which pages and chapters are to be read and learned.

The thrist, literally. And hunger. Most of these places the missionaries do great things like clothe and feed the people. In exchange, they get schooled in the bible.

It is like a 3rd world timeshare meeting. "So all I have to do is listen to your speech every day, and you will feed me, clothe me, and be my doctor? Where do I sign up?!"

If you believe the book is truthful, then it shouldn't matter who taught it. Send an atheist and have them teach it front to back with no persuasions. Each lesson at face value and they can draw their own conclusions. How accepted would it be then?

Out of curiosity, have you actually read the bible? Or Koran? Or do you just read the parts that the guy in the funny suit rambles on about on Sundays?

True. But after the "mission" they unfortunately become so.

Another fallacy and contradictory.

Societies with gods commit crime. The US has prisons right?
Societies without gods commit crime. Those without morals commit crimes. Which brings us full circle to how do you get morality. For that read above (but exit loop if this is > iteration 2).

I find the last sentence to be extremely amusing. Yes the Nazi's had a special god that allowed them to kill others that don't believe. SO DO CHRISTIANS!!!

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12)That means you all need to kill me.

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

That means you need to kill everyone who is not of your religion. All Buddhists, Taoists, Muslims, everyone. Also this means everyone who is not your flavour. So if you are protestant, or catholic, or christian, or baptist, or whatever else, you must kill everyone else who isn't!

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Uh oh... Now you got to burn every town that even has a single person of a different faith! Now we are all screwed! But you must obey!

And you cannot deny it because the word of the lord is perfect. (Psalm 19-something 2 maybe?)

 

Well you grew up with many "moral" generations behind you. So who knows what would have happened if "morals" just didn't appear out of nothing like everything else.

Sure it does... try reading it with an open mind sometime, be careful though... it might speak back :0

Only you could perverse a good thing... They are not only trying to meet their physical needs but also trying to give them a hope the world can not.

Are you volunteering?

You already know the answer to that as you were following Daniel's rant many moons ago.

The mission is to bring the word... it is up to the individual to believe or not believe.

 

spidey, you are my hero.

 

Morality is defined by society. There will always be morals, they just may not jive with today's definition. So those places that have never heard about the bible, they still exist... They didn't devour their own, the world didn't end (well wait until saturday), life moves on. Apparently your religion didn't have anything to do with it.

That is the pot calling the kettle black. I have read it, and know quite a lot of it. What I don't I can remember enough to google the correct bit. I probably know more about the bible then most churchgoers. Do you doubt or deny anything I have taken out of it? No??? Because it is in there. It is hard to take killing an entire village out of context. Oh he was a serial killer, but a nice serial killer...

Not only me, many people dislike having beliefs shoved down their throat. Especially when it involves black mail. Food & bible, or death?

No.

I didn't follow Daniel's rant. So I don't know. However this suggests it is on the forum somewhere. Link to thread or post?

And none of this will matter in 2 sunrises so what's the point?

 

2k1Toaster: The behavior of religious people is messed up by their belief in an afterlife

Me: The behavior of many irreligious people is messed up by their belief there is no afterlife, leading to immoral and harmful acts.

2k1Toaster: Forget my argument was about if there is an afterlife and shift to morals....throw a bunch of other arguments.

Comparing the Nazi's designer pagan religion to Christianity is a bit lame - they both embrace genocide?



For at least five years, people like Daniel went on endlessly....anyone change their belief? Those threads had this odd pattern of strongly opinionated people that were NEVER wrong...have you known anyone that was never wrong? Anyone expect a discussion like this to take a different path than the past.

 

Yes. Read your book some time.

 

MJ?