May Day demonstrations

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ May 2 2007, 02:08 AM) [snapback]433780[/snapback]</div>

? They are the ones who have not maintained their oil infrastructure by living off the proceeds of their oil extraction without keeping the machinary up to date. They are the ones who take their oil weath and waste it almost like other middle east countries - save for a few. why is their bad economy our fault - is their corruption our problem too. Seems to me ever since nafta more and more companies are moving south of the border to take advantage of their labor pool. do you expect other people from other countries to come here too - obviously just countries we take advantage of??

but either way - what part of illegal do they not understand? This whole thing is sureal. What rights could they claim to have? The current laws on the books should be enforced. We need a national ID card. We need to secure our borders for security reasons first.

BTW, how have you been recently? Take care - be safe.

david

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ May 2 2007, 01:00 AM) [snapback]433761[/snapback]</div>

I beginning to like this liberal

 

"Mexico: immigration reform in exchange for oil development

Bush envisioned a Mexican border open to labor, to trade, and open to investment-especially investment in energy. Mexico had banned foreign investment in its energy industry in 1938, and ever since, Mexican oil production has been controlled by the creaky, corrupt, and polluting state monopoly, Pemex. If Mexico opened itself to the exploration and development of its oil resources by American entrepreneurs & technology, Mexican oil might possibly displace Arab oil from the US market altogether.

For this energy "quid," Mexico would of course demand some equally valuable "quo"-and in Bush's mind that "quo" was immigration reform. Bush believed that immigration was valuable to the US and praised it again and again in public speeches and his private conversations.

So the Bush administration designed a system for regularizing the Mexican-US labor relationship-not an amnesty like that of 1986, but a grander system for enabling Mexicans to work in the US temporarily and then to go home again."
Source: The Right Man, by David Frum, p. 84-85 Jun 1, 2003

 

I would love, for everyone here that is sooooo opposed to this whole thing, to go live flat broke in a country like Mexico for a few years, then assess your moral high ground viewpoints.

 

I don't care how much foreign investment you put into Mexico's oil fields, you are not going replace ME oil. You are not even going to increase Mexican production. At best, you can maintain their current production that is currently declining at 15%. Their decline is mostly due to the age and size of their fields, not the machinery. Better machinery just sucks it out faster, it doesn't create new reserves.

As for immigration:
It's easy to point at US history as a reason to have open borders, but the era was completely different. Back then land seemed limitless, but labor was in high demand, so bring your huddled masses! The US (and world) population has pretty much filled up to capacity, so things are alittle different.

They are coming in hordes nowdays for economic reasons, so reducing the demand for their labor will help somewhat. But as we go forward and global warming expands equatorial desert regions, millions will migrate as their farmlands and food supplies dry up.

Think about it. The majority of human population and the areas where the reproduction rate is very high are in places that are either deserts already, or that are drying up. Those populations are maintained with oil dollars (to import food) and as those dollars start to decline, what are those people to do? Massive numbers of people will migrate towards the poles and will either displace the current populations (forcing them to move farther north, or they will be turned away at the point of a gun. Neither option is pleasant.

 

Mystery Squid: "I would love, for everyone here that is sooooo opposed to this whole thing, to go live flat broke in a country like Mexico for a few years, then assess your moral high ground viewpoints."

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Ohhhhh, so you're saying that, "unless we've experienced it ourselves, we're completely incapable of understanding or empathy"?

Do I have this correct? Is this your assertion?

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Stay the course; you're advancing towards the rear.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ May 2 2007, 02:38 PM) [snapback]434170[/snapback]</div>

Interesting. So you're siding with the illegals?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ May 2 2007, 12:38 PM) [snapback]434170[/snapback]</div>

I've lived that way here in the U.S. for most of my early childhood then I experienced it firsthand in southern Chile when I stayed in a remote village that has been broken down due to fisheries exraction by developed countries which left the villagers with no real source of income and the othr problems that come with western industrialized cultures. We can see the same effects on our cultural endevours by looking at nearly any indigenous tribe from the Inuit in the far north to the Ayacara Chileans in the far south. Moral high-ground? Maybe so but I did not come to these views without direct and intimate experience. I've lived through the typical abused childhood (physical, sexual, and emotional) with drug addict parents, to being homeless and living in the dumpsters at the Jelly Belly Bean plant, then to having in excess of $600k in liquid assests. I've seen and done enough to feel pretty confident in my viewpoints.

David, I'm at school right now and cannot reply in detail but I'll try to do so later tonight once I'm done studying for a chemistry test. I understand and agree that illegal is illegal. I just do not agree with the animosity being presented by some in this thread when they do not even have a good grasp on how our lifestyle and economic decisions have a profound effect on other nations. Although it is not a good example in this instance the movie Blood Diamond portrays part of what I'm talking about. Have a great day my friend.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ May 2 2007, 04:24 PM) [snapback]434209[/snapback]</div>

Not completely, only with respect to basic healthcare (define it how you will, I'm talking amongst the lines of, let's say, getting a heart attack and requiring some form of immediate or urgent care), and perhaps, some low level "legality" issues.

I start from the standpoint that EVERYONE within our borders should not be turned away from hospitals for care that requires some degree of urgency. Unlike some Libralazi's, I place basic humanitarian issues first and foremost.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Darwood @ May 2 2007, 12:54 PM) [snapback]434184[/snapback]</div>

By recreating our economic models to increase product and energy efficiency and reincorporating the value of natural and human capital we can eleviate some of the problems that reduce the amount of jobs lost to mechanizations. There are a million different ways to do this and thre are a number of corporations doing this as we speak. Check out books like "How to build a Business", The Ecology of Commerce" both by Paul Hawken and "Natural Capitalism" by Amory and Hunter Lovins for more information on this. Visit Interface Inc.'s website and look at their change in direction which is increasing efficiency, vastly reducing waste and maintaining jobs or even creating new ones. An economic model that does not take natural capital and the human resource into account is unsustainable and ultimately a very poor model for long term prosperity.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ May 2 2007, 03:24 PM) [snapback]434209[/snapback]</div>

The way I see it is, we're a very rich country with a very poor country next door. We have a strong economy with a lot of available entry-level jobs that pay much more than average poor workers can get over there. It is natural that they want these jobs.

Many illegal immigrants have children who were born in the USA, and some of these have their own children now, who are also born in the USA. I think if you're born in the USA, regardless if your parents came here legally, you should have the right to US citizenship provided you can prove your birth status somehow.

It is not about which side are you on. It is about facing reality. There are a lot of immigrants who want to be citizens, or at least, want a legal way to stay in this country. I say give them a way to do this.

I am talking to YOU and everyone else here on this forum. The United States needs to LEAD by example. We talk about Freedom a lot. Yet the people who want it the most aren't good enough for it? The vast majority of people in this country are here because they love this country. And we should all remember, all of us come from immigrant families unless you're a Native American.

Dave

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NoMoShocks @ May 1 2007, 11:35 PM) [snapback]433754[/snapback]</div>

Would you commit a non violent crime if it were the only way to feed your family?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hycamguy07 @ May 2 2007, 09:14 AM) [snapback]433994[/snapback]</div>

That actually would not be all that much more than what I pay now. And I'd pay it gladly if it went to human services instead of paying for an illegal war.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ May 2 2007, 10:05 AM) [snapback]434048[/snapback]</div>

You are terribly mistaken. While you could certainly find examples of individuals who pay no taxes (both citizens and immigrants) the vast majority of immigrants come here to work, and they do work, and they have payroll taxes withheld from their paychecks. But those who are undocumented cannot file for tax refunds. Thus, by and large, undocumented workers pay higher taxes than "legal" workers earning the same amount. In addition, they pay the same sales taxes as anyone else, and if they rent housing, their landlord pays property taxes, which generally go to the local schools, and the landlord passes those taxes on to the renter in the amount of rent charged.

It is a terrible slander to say that undocumented workers pay no taxes.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarinJohn @ May 2 2007, 10:54 AM) [snapback]434091[/snapback]</div>

Quite true: Corporations hire undocumented workers because they are hard workers, and they work for less. As long as there are jobs available, and desperate people on the other side of the border, they will come. People will not sit quietly when their kids are hungry. They will do whatever they must to earn a living. And right now, U.S. corporations are screaming: Come up here! We'll hire you!

The disparity between the highest and lowest paid citizens (even without looking at immigrants) in this country is obscene.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ May 2 2007, 11:06 AM) [snapback]434099[/snapback]</div>

Stolen land aside??? If someone stole your car, and then told the judge, "Stolen car aside, I did nothing wrong," would you think the judge should let him go?

By the way: The reason people (citizens or immigrants) go to the emergency room with a cold is that they have no health coverage to go to a regular doctor. And as I said previously, denying health care to anyone is an excellent way to promote the outbreak of infectious-disease epidemics.

I had some health issues while I was living in Spain. Twice I went to the emergency room on account of what turned out to be a bladder infection, and I had several visits to a cardiologist, including a maximal treadmill stress test because my arrythmia was just starting to appear. I went to a private hospital and paid out of my own pocket. It cost about 1/3 as much as the same procedures cost here. Our health care system is broken, and it's not immigrants that are responsible, in spite of the mealy-mouthed political demagogs who love to blame everything on anyone who can't vote.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ May 2 2007, 01:36 PM) [snapback]434217[/snapback]</div>

Then lets get everyone to stop smoking and eating too much fattening foods which lead to a $190 billion dollar annual medical expense. I don't smoke and I'm not obese so should I have to pay for this BS because some a#%hat doesn't care if he destroys his body?

 

It is denial that is making this immigration issue worse.

Most illegals don't pay income taxes. If they work for a corporation they use fake SSN and no one asks any questions. If they did there would be a surplus of SSI. Most work for cash. They are not on the books with legal, true ID anywhere in this country. They don't go to a doctor, because they know they will have to PAY for it. The ER does not turn them away. It is free.

These people are not stupid. They know how to get here and work this system to their full advantage, and to hell with LEGAL US citizens that have a problem with it.

For every working male that comes here, 2 non working, baby-making women come here and have anchor babies. These women never work,except for domestic cash paying jobs, and they live off of all free programs, they can figure out. Their children burden the school systems. Ask anyone in Georgia Education.

I don't really care about the tiny amount of sales tax they pay. It angers me that they send the bulk of their tax free money back to Mexico. They cost the US more than they are worth.

I pay insurance out of the wazoo - I can't afford it either, but I can't afford to be without it. By the time I pay for the insurance, I can't afford the doctor visit.

They need come here, prepared to follow the laws of this country. Get LEGAL or get out. Follow the laws or get out.

They need to revolt against their crooked Mexican Government that has stolen from them for years. That is who "owes" these illegals, not US citizens.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusmaybe @ May 2 2007, 05:01 PM) [snapback]434352[/snapback]</div>

Maybe you should be complaining to the carpet manufactures in the Dalton area about hiring them. Then again Georgia is not generally known for racial equality. lol

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ May 2 2007, 08:18 PM) [snapback]434365[/snapback]</div>

No Georgia is an equal opportunity offender, a racist good ole boy state network, to even more corrupt racist reversed politics from the City of Atlanta, to the local school boards and let us not forget about the corrupt county governments and Police force.


Dalton is a long way from Atlanta. Also big problems at the Chicken Processing Areas like Gainesville. Here in the city, most corporations don't hire illegals. They landscape and day labor, along with domestic help.

My folks live in California, and it is a nightmare with all of the illegals. Nice Neigborhoods have turned into dumps. Georgia is not far behind.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusmaybe @ May 2 2007, 05:33 PM) [snapback]434376[/snapback]</div>

I thought Dalton was closer (100miles or so). In Cali 100miles is a normal commute. Hahaha

It's good to see the in town corps. don't hire them openly. We need to work on that around the nation but unfortunately most of us are so spoiled we won't take the jobs they do or at least we won't do it for cheap sooo maybe we should be more accepting of higher priced goods so we can get our idle labor force back in action?

Like I said before, it is not a simple problem. The roots are many and deep. We need to change the way we do business and our worldview before this will get better. We keep relying on subsidized agriculture and fossil fuels and we will continue to reap the bad effects.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 2 2007, 06:45 PM) [snapback]434341[/snapback]</div>

It's tough, and I admit that my personal feelings color my observations on this point especially.

At this moment, I feel there is a far too strong sense of entitlement on the part of illegal aliens. As Marin John (I believe) said (and I'm paraphrasing now), "...in what other country do aliens enter illegally, then demand the same rights as citizens?"

Yes, what you allude to is egregious and wrong. But I think it's a bit unrealistic to take this struggle all the back to square one and then try to right every injustice since then.

I fear that I'll remain with my harder line on this point. Our domestic programs are hurting; people who pay taxes are suffering. We already pay twice as much for the same healthcare as do folks in most other 'first world' (do they still use that term anymore?) countries.

We can't take care of our own people, pure and simple, at least with our current priorities. So, until those priorites change, I don't see anything else changing either.

If we ever do decide to make retributions...why, that'd be great...but it'd have to be lots more structured than giving the illegal aliens already here ID cards, and ramping up our emergency room budgets.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ May 2 2007, 05:46 PM) [snapback]434380[/snapback]</div>

Just so people don't confuse my personal feelings with the logic of the situation. I feel the same as quoted above. I just don't get angry because I see where the problem starts.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ May 2 2007, 07:50 PM) [snapback]434381[/snapback]</div>

I would have to agree; sometimes the situation does get the best of me but I'm attempting to at least acknowledge the bigger picture.