May Day demonstrations

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IAO @ May 3 2007, 02:55 PM) [snapback]434988[/snapback]</div>

Yakov Shmirnov had some funny things to say about getting citizenship and forgetting about that part.

 

I do think most Mexican people are nice, good hardworking folks. I do know many of them. They are also against ILLEGAL immigration. I know a few illegals and I have had this discussion with them. I also think that all people should be treated humanely. Some come to this country, work, stay out of trouble (crime) and pay taxes. Most do not.


That is not what being against illegal immigration is about.

Many of these people are now FIRST in line in this country for Freebies, Benefits and Healthcare. Do you have any idea what it costs to have a baby without insurance? Those costs alone are breaking the hospitals.

It is only natural that they are protesting, because they actually think they have rights above and beyond what US citizens have. In a way it is true, when you consider they don't have to follow most laws that the rest of us do. They get a free ticket when they violate the first major law, Sneaking into this Country and never attempting to get legal. Now that they have been able to come in and stay and work, with very little consequence, they are not satisfied. They want the American Dream, and rightly so, but they don't want to learn English, they are not educated, don't conform to customs and LAWS of the US, nor follow conditions for Educating their children. Many do not try to follow Housing and Subdivision codes and are destroying property values everywhere they rent. I think many do feel they are "owed" and I am sick of this. WHO Owes them?

Our government has been like an overly permissive parent. Now that there is trouble no one knows what to do with the children that are out of control. We can start by thanking Regan. The same "solution" will not work again. The Mexicans alone, are coming into this country in record numbers, and no one can get an accurate count.

Everything wrong in the US is not the fault of illegal immigrants. But additonal Prison overcrowding, Healthcare, SSI, Federal and State Tax issues, local welfare programs and education issues are going to kill a system that is already sick.

If the companies that hire these folks really value them, they will step up and PAY for it. I don't think the average middle class and poor citizens should.

If we are so horrible, that these folks need to raise hell and throw their illegal crap in our faces -Let THEM GO HOME and see how much better it is in MEXCO. Let us start sending them home on buses with all of their anchor babies, and we will see how much they are missed. Maybe then, they will be hired legally by corporations, and maybe they will appreciate being here and learn to assimilate, instead of ranting and raving like thankless children.


On the news now. Grady Hospital Atlanta one of the largest acute care centers in the US, and the best in Georgia will run out of money by the end of this year. It is 60 million dollars in debt today. Due to uninsured who never pay a dime. If these immigrants can send money home, they can pay SOMETHING toward Health Care.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarinJohn @ May 3 2007, 10:12 AM) [snapback]434829[/snapback]</div>

[The numbers in brackets have been added by me for easier point-by-point response]

1. True. And it's impossible to close such a long border. Patrolling the border and arresting immigrants is not going to solve the problem. We need more creative approaches.

2. True. And hard-working people add to the overall wealth of the country.

3. True again. Though I might phrase it differently: Employers create the demand for labor that immigrants come here to fill.

4. Excellent idea. Not a new idea, but excellent still.

5. Another excellent idea. Corporations no longer pay their fair share, even though they get the lion's share of free government welfare money.

6. Now we disagree. They'll just write off the fines as a business expense, and the people who make the hiring and policy decisions will not suffer. If you really want to stop immigration, impose long jail sentences on the top executives of corporations who hire undocumented workers.

But I think I have a more effective way: Set the minimum wage high enough that citizens would be willing to take the jobs, and impose long jail terms on the executives of companies that pay less than the minimum wage.

7. The Constitution of the United States states that any person born in the U.S. is a citizen. Your suggestion would require a Constitutional ammendment.

8. I agree with this one, too. I strongly suspect, however, that most of the loudest voices against undocumented immigrants are, deep down, equally full of venom against all immigrants. Xenophobia is a strong undercurrent in this country, parallel to racism, and while some people (including many, but not all, on this board) are honestly concerned only about what they see as "illegal" immigration, for many on the extreme right, "illegal" immigration is merely a code word for talking about all immigration while hiding their underlying racism and xenophobia.

And welcoming the people who come "by the rules" will not discourage others from coming. People will do whatever they must to survive. And if they cannot survive there, they will come here.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ May 3 2007, 02:02 PM) [snapback]434993[/snapback]</div>

I should not have posted my comments as a reply to yours. You are one of the most moderate anti-immigration voices. However, when immigrants are responsible for less of our social costs than they contribute in non-recoverable over-taxation, and welfare for the rich is responsible for the lion's share, it really seems upside down to look to cutting off essential services for immigrants as a way to address issues caused by the illegal war and give-aways to the rich. Of all the anti-immigration voices here, you are one of the very few who I would expect to understand this. I apologize for making it seem that you were more unreasonable than you are, as normally you are one of the most reasonable voices on this board.

 

8. I agree with this one, too. I strongly suspect, however, that most of the loudest voices against undocumented immigrants are, deep down, equally full of venom against all immigrants. Xenophobia is a strong undercurrent in this country, parallel to racism, and while some people (including many, but not all, on this board) are honestly concerned only about what they see as "illegal" immigration, for many on the extreme right, "illegal" immigration is merely a code word for talking about all immigration while hiding their underlying racism and xenophobia.




I think that this is a very unfair and narrow minded statement. You are no better than the worst case anti-illegal immigrant point of view that wants to put them all in prison.

This is not about race, or anti immigrant for most of us. It is about ILLEGAL

For you to make a parallel of this magnitude, says a lot about you.

What a bunch of baloney!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusmaybe @ May 3 2007, 03:34 PM) [snapback]435054[/snapback]</div>

don't see him making too much of a stretch with that one. Xenophobia is rampent in certain areas of our country from what I see. I kow more than enough people who normally make negative comments about the immigration of other nationalities and they are the first to ball up their fists and proclaim their opinions in anger when illegal immigration is brought up. Is Daniel's statement true here? I have no clue but to pretend it's not possible is sticking ones head in the sand. I am not sure it applies to races as much as ethnocentrism or nationalism.

 

Daniel, thanks for saying what you did.

I'm honestly a bit disturbed by some of my feelings about this, to be perfectly honest.

I do feel like our blatant consumerism and status consciousness is only naturally having an effect on those who wish to come to this country by other means than provided for by our government. American capitalism (or whatever it's called; I'm not an economist) seems to be kind of like our fast food; it's tasty, it's satisfying, it's actually designed to be liked, it makes you feel good for a while, but it also has some downsides if you consume too much of it too frequently.

Why wouldn't this be catching?

And that seems to be what's happened. We've spread our culture via 'things' (their acquisition and ownership and reflection of status and power, and through these, a promise of a false sense of security) and now, naturally, people want to be part of it...immediately.

I'd also say that it doesn't help the problem that we're so duplicious about hiring these folks on the premise they're doing work Americans won't do (George Bush, from the other day: "If you've got a chicken factory...a chicken plucking factory...whatever it's called...and you've got illegal aliens, why then you know what I'm talkin' about...")

This, in itself, is DEEPLY problematic. There is more and more work which "Americans" simply refuse to do...? Because it doesn't pay enough/provide enough status...?

huh?

Whatever happened to Ben Franklin and a penny saved is a penny earned, and "every job well done, no matter how humble, is noble," and Yankee ingenuity, and Pat Nixon's "humble Republican cloth coat" (but, as her husband continued, "Pat looks good in anything.") and the creation of the best fighter plane of WWII in 119 days, from the first drawings to first flight?!?!

Oh, but now we're sooooooooo important that we're TOO GOOD for certain jobs?

I'm changing my tune: Open the borders. Ease citizenship requirements and get rid of the lame costs associated with the process. Spend the money necessary to overhaul the healthcare process here; the money we waste now could probably pay for their healthcare!

I'll bet that the real reason we're so afraid of Mexican illegal aliens is that, given a level playing field, there may well be large numbers who will be more productive than we are...simply based upon their **willingness to work.**

That's not to say that there aren't lots of folks who want to milk the system...but, as it stands, things really encourage this by denying them normal access to the things you and I take for granted.

Right now, we're basically encouraging an employment black market, it seems to me.

[attachmentid=7848]

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ May 3 2007, 04:51 PM) [snapback]435111[/snapback]</div>

You are stating some of the details of my view. This is indeed where our problems are coming from. Simply closing borders and laying claymores are not the solution. Our culture is infectious and IMO is a disease on this planet but that is another topic.

Yes they are doing commiting a crime yet try for a moment to empathize and look at the big picture then lets start working on solutions to fix the problem at it's root without causing more problems. I would argue that this "solution" is far reaching and would transform our nation from a greedy tyrant to a true global leader.

Here is an example of this new movement that seeks to dethrone power and create cooperation.

"THE GREAT TURNING: FROM EMPIRE TO EARTH COMMUNITY
BY DAVID C. KORTEN
CHAPTER SUMMARIES

PART I: CHOOSING OUR FUTURE
The defining choice before us is between two contrasting models for organizing human affairs referred to in The Great Turning as Empire and Earth Community. Empire organizes by domination at all levels, from relations among nations to relations among family members. For five thousand years, Empire has brought fortune to the few, condemned the majority of humanity to misery and servitude, suppressed the creative potential of the species, and appropriated much of the productive surplus of human societies to maintain the institutions of domination. Earth Community, by contrast, features organization by partnership, unleashes the human potential for creative cooperation, and gives priority in allocating the productive surplus of society to growing the generative potential of the whole. Supporting evidence of these potentials comes from sources as varied as evolutionary theory, developmental psychology, and religious teachings.

CHAPTER 1: THE CHOICE
A convergence of imperative and opportunity unique to the present moment in the human experience sets the stage for an intentional collective choice to put the way of Empire behind us as we live into being a new era of Earth Community. Although our personal circumstances may limit our individual choices, human circumstances are often collective human creations and thereby subject to collective choice.

CHAPTER 2: THE POSSIBILITY
The defenders of Empire teach that we humans are by nature limited to a self-centered and ultimately self-destructive narcissism. In fact, Empire suppresses development of the higher orders of human consciousness thereby creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. The lower orders of Magical and Imperial Consciousness produce a culture of Empire. The higher orders of Cultural and Spiritual Consciousness produce a culture of Earth Community. The Socialized Consciousness from which most people operate is capable of adapting to the values and expectations of either Empire or Earth Community, depending on which culture prevails. Ultimately, we humans are the architects of our own nature, and thereby of our future.

CHAPTER 3: THE IMPERATIVE
Empire has reached the limits of the social and environmental exploitation that people and Earth will sustain. A mounting perfect economic storm born of a convergence of peak oil, climate change, and unsustainable U.S. trade deficits will bring a dramatic restructuring of every aspect of modern life. It is ours to choose, however, whether the consequences play out as a terminal crisis or an epic opportunity."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ May 3 2007, 05:30 PM) [snapback]435012[/snapback]</div>

"There are no Taco Bells in Russia. They didn't like the slogan, 'Run for the border.' " Yakov Smirnoff
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Seams appropriate for this thread, well maybe I don’t know I have a sick since of humor.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ May 3 2007, 04:51 PM) [snapback]435111[/snapback]</div>

I don't think it's so much that Americans feel "too good" for certain jobs. I think it's a simple question of how much it costs to live. You cannot live on minimum wage. People hire immigrants because they will work for wages so low it requires them to live in squalor, because where they came from, living conditions are worse. So if you strictly enforce a minimum wage people can live a dignified life on, you remove the incentive to hire undocumented workers.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarinJohn @ May 3 2007, 12:12 PM) [snapback]434829[/snapback]</div>

You keep saying that, twice in this topic. Previously you asserted that limiting CEO pay would reduces prices. While it may be a worthwhile social goal, it will have a greater impact on the country's schadenfreude than the economy. Consider if you confiscated the pay of all the fortune 500 CEO's, say 500*$100M, a minuscule fraction of the $10 trillion GNP. Not much price pressure.

Not to interrupt the immigrant bashing, but I'm always amazed at the amount of innumerancy in seemingly well educated folks. Yet, fail to realize the world bank's effects on emerging economies and you're some sort of bumpkin.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusmaybe @ May 3 2007, 03:34 PM) [snapback]435054[/snapback]</div>

I acknowlegde that there are people for whom the sole issue is one of legality, but I have seen too much straight-out xenophobia and racism to believe that legality is the driving concern making this a topic of public discussion.

The law is so arbitrary as to be almost irrelevant. The same people who complained about "illegal" immigration, howled against the Reagan era amnesty, which turned "illegals" into "legals" with the stroke of a pen. If a person's real concern is simply "legality" then this law should have made them happy, because the people who took advantage of the amnesty were thereby within the law.

I hear too much venom against people who speak a language other than English to believe that those people would be satisfied if the immigrants had all arrived "legally." I hear too many racist jokes to believe that race is not an integral part of many peoples' motivation for opposing immigration.

I read somewhere that more Canadians than Mexicans are living undocumented in the U.S. But the Border Patrol puts no effort into apprehending them. Why? Obviously, because they are white and speak English.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ May 3 2007, 03:10 PM) [snapback]434961[/snapback]</div>

This is another thing that bugs me about the immigrant debate. This sort of statement is HS debate tactics. Cultural supplanting has occurred so frequently and throughout the world that it could be considered human nature. Did the Arabs buy Spain from the Europeans? When the Europeans kicked them out were they imperialists? Did the Turks buy Eastern Europe? Did the Angles buyout the Saxons? Or was it the other way around? And in particular, who do you think owns the land and wealth in Mexico? The descendants of Europeans or los Indios? I have to laugh when I here some MECHAñero with 6 names calling for the return of Aztlan. If its all about who was where first, should we just open the border to those who can prove tribal affiliation, a sometimes nasty problem with the advent of Indian Casinos, by the way. Or embrace are European cousins and only allow them to jump the border? Tired aphorisms aren't the answer or even relevant.

There, now I feel better. Think I'll go have a XX.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 3 2007, 09:17 PM) [snapback]435199[/snapback]</div>

You or someone else said this before and I challenged them, even supplying a reference, but got no reply. Unequal border enforcement may indeed be about (abut?) bigotry, but repeating baseless canards isn't going to change things.

 

I think its funny how the most vocal conservatives are adamantly against illegal immigration while their party is the major force causing the problem.
If illegals were kicked out of the country ,the DOW would reflect that by crashing .
Capitalism needs a worker surplus to keep wages down.Low unemployment is inflationary and is avoided at all costs by industry.The Republicans union busting philosophy only works when there is a large pool of scab labor to draw upon.Bush encourages illegal immigration.
The difference between the Dems and Republicans is that the Dems are willing to treat the immigrants humanely.

 

Regan's solution was a joke. It didn't provide any real solutions for future immigrant wannabees, and now we have the Problems we have. The sheer volume of what is going on today greatly surpasses the number of immigrants Regan provided for. If you live in one of the newly overrun areas, you would understand. I think folks in CA are just used to it.

There are middle of the road solutions that would satisfy most, but the US government does not what to deal with it. The



I would love to get some decent priced or free healthcare, when the Government stops wasting money. Why do the illegals get it first before other middleclass and poor US citizens??

Most illegals in Metro Atlanta I know make $15 - $25 per hour cash, not minimum wage.



Borders can be, and are secured all over the world


I never hear immigrant jokes, except on Jay Leno or from George Lopez.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RonH @ May 3 2007, 07:55 PM) [snapback]435228[/snapback]</div>

So, the U.S. took what is now the entire southwestern portion of our country from Mexico by invading Mexico under false pretenses and forcing them to give it over to us, and now the Mexicans are taking it back by coming here, and filling the U.S. demand for cheap hard-working labor. If "cultural supplanting" is just normal and acceptable, what's the problem? If it was acceptable for us to "supplant" the Indians by murdering most of them, including their women and children, in cold blood, how can anyone complain if the Mexicans "supplant" us peacefully, by coming here to work?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mojo @ May 3 2007, 08:21 PM) [snapback]435253[/snapback]</div>

Excellent point! Big business hires immigrants because they work harder and for less, and the party of big business uses their presence to foment xenophobia and racial intolerance to get the votes of lower-middle-class people who cannot see who it really is that's hurting them.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ May 3 2007, 04:10 PM) [snapback]434961[/snapback]</div>

And the Israeli's stole the Palastinian's land. What does that have to do with illegal aliens invading our country, sucking up free services, and costing taxpayers & municipalities mega bucks?

No matter what you say they are illegal aliens and 80% of the American people don't like it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ May 3 2007, 04:25 PM) [snapback]434970[/snapback]</div>

There wouldn't be all the stress you make reference to if we weren't being overrun by 3rd worlders. What makes you think you are so right and I am so wrong? Your kind is quick to attack anyone who doesn't share your beliefs. You assume people with opposing viewpoints hate others, but that isn't the issue here. This topic is about illegal aliens invading this country. If anything you should be pushing for Mexico's govt. to take care of their own. We aren't responsible for the whole world's problems in spite of what Bush thinks.

This country should take care of American citizens and stop meddling in other people's affairs.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ May 3 2007, 04:47 PM) [snapback]434977[/snapback]</div>

I would not expect anything less from you. I have always said every person is entitled to her/his opinion. I find your personal attacks on me totally uncalled for. It seems when you don't agree with someone you attack them.

Like it or not I was born here and I say stop all immigration. Don't like it too bad.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ May 3 2007, 04:47 PM) [snapback]434977[/snapback]</div>

I would not expect anything less from you. I have always said every person is entitled to her/his opinion. I find your personal attacks on me totally uncalled for. It seems when you don't agree with someone you attack them.

Like it or not I was born here and I say stop all immigration. Don't like it too bad.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IAO @ May 3 2007, 04:55 PM) [snapback]434988[/snapback]</div>

Brain dead?? Name calling? Your IQ must be very low. A typical weeney liberal. To hell with you and your stupid pictures.

You obviously aren't capable of having an intelligent debate without attacking people like me just because I disagree with you.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusmaybe @ May 3 2007, 06:12 PM) [snapback]435039[/snapback]</div>

Well said. Don't ever back off on what YOU believe in. We may be outnumbered on this forum, but 80% of the American people don't want ANY more immigration.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 3 2007, 06:27 PM) [snapback]435047[/snapback]</div>

Daniel, you are a logical, reasonable poster.

 

80% 80% 80%

did you know 52.7% of statistics were made up on the spot? where did walker's come from?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 3 2007, 10:17 PM) [snapback]435199[/snapback]</div>

You should live in FL. There are tons of jobs requiring potential applicants to be bilingual, Spanish speaking mostly. So I am supposed to learn spanish in my own country? Not likely. Canadians aren't well liked here either. They bring it upon themselves. Being white is not an issue.

Hispanics should learn english and assimulate if they want to be in this country. Go to Miami and try to find someone who speaks english. Good luck.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mojo @ May 3 2007, 11:21 PM) [snapback]435253[/snapback]</div>

I am against ALL immigration. I can't stand either party. The Dems. are nothing more than liars and do nothing types just like Bush & his cronies. Americans no longer have any representation for them. Everything is for others. Citizens don't count. This is such BS.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 4 2007, 10:30 AM) [snapback]435408[/snapback]</div>

You're right. Big businesses won't stop until they have stolen all of this country's wealth while screwing Americans out of their pensions, social security, and anything else they can take away.

Why is nobody screaming about the price of gas?? Does this mean we are more concerned about illegals coming here than being raped by the big oil cos.? What a sad situation.

george Carlin called big businesses "criminal Coc*****ers" and I agree with him 100%.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Walker1 @ May 4 2007, 01:38 PM) [snapback]435506[/snapback]</div>

LOL,I, too, find when one has no substantial arguement, backed up by factual information, instead of pure emotion, they resort to grade school "NAME CALLING", and generalized attacks of anyone that disagrees with them on any level. The biggest warning sign of this kind of individual is the blanket use of the word " XENOPHOBIA" and the worn out attack of "racism". Then I know they might be some kind of yo-yo, like Jesse Jackson and most of the ACLU. It is futile to continue your dscussion with this kind of person, because they have already made their mind up, and they just want to PREACH, not discuss. They remind me of a SCHOOL YARD BULLY.


I don't need anyone to tell me what I think. I am living in the middle of the negative aspects this situation is causing. I am looking at slums in what were nice areas 4 years ago. I am looking at lost property values, with no way out. I am looking at a lot of illegal people that primarily don't care about anything except the money they can earn and send back to Mexico, and have no pride in where they live (because they don't plan on staying). I am seeing Mexican crime and gangs developing at a huge pace, without additional money for a police force to control them. Crystal Meth labs are being busted in homes in neighborhoods like mine, and these folks aren't legal citizens. Slum lords ought to get life in prison for renting to these people in the manner in which they do. The conditions are not humane and destroy property values.

Some of these illegals do have good intentions, but they are far outnumbered by those that don't care about our country, except what they can get out of us and send back home. They are very smart folks.


I have friends who have exited the Education System because of the focus away from learning, and concentration on rampant discipline issues. I have a neighbor who is a night ER nurse, (legal from Columbia) that can hardly stand the situation.

There are better places for an Immigration Discussion, with educated viewpoints, from both sides of the coin.

I quit buying lettuce, chickens and tomatoes a long time ago. I don't frequent restaurants and businesses if I think illegals are employed there.