May Day demonstrations

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Walker1 @ May 4 2007, 01:58 PM) [snapback]435530[/snapback]</div>

Are you kidding? Didn’t you know immigrants and illegal aliens are the reason that we have high gas prices?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IAO @ May 4 2007, 02:04 PM) [snapback]435546[/snapback]</div>

Where do you get that from? Illegals don't drive SUV's and huge pickups. Big oil is raping us daily and not one word is uttered from our so called elected officials. Them and the Arabs are billionaires sucking the world's wealth into their pockets.

 

First: Most people against "ILLEGAL" immagration are not xenophobes or racists (this argument is similar to invoking Goodwin's law)

Second: Americans will do the jobs illegals do, just not for the money being offered, check out what happend at the Swift plants after the illegals were cleaned out.

Third: low paid illegal workers hurt LOW PAID AMERICAN WORKERS!!! Those who can least afford the competition. Illegas don't threaten my job (high powered attorney;-) but legal immagrants, low income whites and minorities and first time jobs hunters all find it more difficult to find a job or one that pays well enough to live.

Fourth: You can't have a "guest" worker program until you can control the flow of illegals over the border! After full control of the border is achieved then you can determine how many more visas you have to issue to fill employment ranks. While still maintaining a respectable status of life for all the workers. Many more "Legal" immagreants may in fact be required.

Fifth: you don't need to deport 12,000,000 illegals, just actually enforce current laws fining companies that hire illegasl. I may have a conservative bend with a soft spot for big business, but hire an illegal in the US and I'll fine the livin crap out of you. These jobs are service jobs which cannot be shipped overseas.

Sixth: The US did not steal parts of Mexico. The border did not "cross" the illegals, they crossed the border. If the border had crossed them then they would already be here!! In fact Mexicans who were affected by the southwest being incorporated into the US WANTED to be a part of the US because of the abject corruption of Mexico. (not all of course but you can't please everyone)

Seventh: If the illegals would just learn English (admittedly some do but not most) then they would one, assimilate better, people would be a little less fearful of them, it would show that they wanted to be here instead of using America as a suckling pig to compensate for their own countries failures. It is really galling to most people to hear the news interview a woman (or man) who the reporter tells you has lived in the US for 15 years (legality usually left off) and the person cannot speak ENGLISH!!! I would expect that I would learn spanish if I wanted to live in Mexico for 15 years!!!!

Eight: If you think our immagration laws and enforcement are barbaric, look at how Mexico treats illegals coming in from its southern border! Mexicans really need to look at their own house before throwing stones at ours!!!!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Walker1 @ May 4 2007, 09:58 AM) [snapback]435484[/snapback]</div>

You are wrong. Prior to the establishment of the State of Israel, Zionist pioneers who settled in the land that was later to become Israel purchased the land on which they settled and cultivated. (Institute for the Study of Modern Israel of Emory University)

I was just pointing out to you whose country this was until the Europeans arrived. I assume that you have studied American history.

Care to cite a source for these statistics?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Walker1 @ May 4 2007, 10:38 AM) [snapback]435506[/snapback]</div>

May I suggest some anger management counseling?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Walker1 @ May 4 2007, 11:23 AM) [snapback]435567[/snapback]</div>

Well, I know some who drive Cadillac Escalades, Lincoln Navigators, Range Rovers and other luxury brands. Not every illegal alien is a poorly paid day laborer.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Walker1 @ May 4 2007, 02:23 PM) [snapback]435567[/snapback]</div>

Your are brain-dead xenophobic morally deprived zealots who hasn’t a clue of the history of this country. You also have no since of humor.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Walker1 @ May 3 2007, 04:25 PM) [snapback]434964[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Walker1 @ May 3 2007, 04:00 PM) [snapback]434953[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Walker1 @ May 4 2007, 01:38 PM) [snapback]435506[/snapback]</div>

You have proven yourself to be very close-minded. You say I am a liberal fine if it means that I am not like you then sure I am a liberal. I have my own view on immigration yes I insulted you but hey you asked for it. If you want to go around spouting racist insults about a people expect people to get upset with you. Am I supposed to listen to every nasty thing you have to say and then I can’t say anything back. Im sorry you feel insulted and that you have been offended but you have offended me. To be truthful I couldn’t give a f__k about you.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Walker1 @ May 4 2007, 09:58 AM) [snapback]435484[/snapback]</div>

My kind? LMAO! You have no clue who I am or who I used to be. I was once just as ignorant sounding. I used to think much the same as you and even said similar things. I have learned that I was wrong in a lot of ways and I changed my views. Your attitude SCREAMS hatred so please do not place the burden of misrepresentation in my court.

I'm very well read (17 books in the last year), I attend applicable conferences, I've been to 3rd world countries and many of my friends/professors regularly spend time in them, AND I live in California where being white often puts you in the minority. I've also lived in Eastern Oregon and watched the annual migration of field workers who rented unsanitary "rooms" from my alcoholic father. Yeah, my kind is completely unaware of the root to this problem(s).

As for the big trucks and SUV statement (whoever wrote that). I don't know about your city but in California that is about the only thing they drive. Now, whether the hispanics I see are illegal or not I cannot say but I'd say about 80% of the individuals I see drive full size trucks and SUVs. The new imigrants often put tiny wheels on these trucks or cars which also ruins gas milage. LOL

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Walker1 @ May 4 2007, 09:58 AM) [snapback]435484[/snapback]</div>

If the industrialized countries, collectively, returned to the underdeveloped countries all the wealth stolen from them during the colonial period, it would wipe out the foreign debt of the third world and provide the underdeveloped countries with the capital to develop themselves and join the mainstream world economy as industrial countries in their own right. This would be good for everybody, since it would greatly reduce the third-world poverty which is a the root source of much of the world's instability.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ May 4 2007, 10:45 AM) [snapback]435526[/snapback]</div>

You are mistaken. The firgure is closer to 90%, if not greater.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Walker1 @ May 4 2007, 10:58 AM) [snapback]435530[/snapback]</div>

I've never been to Florida. I cannot tolerate humidity. However, the last time I was in Los Angeles, it was great fun to be able to walk into a convenience store and chat with the clerk/cashier in Spanish. They were always surprised that such an Anglo-looking person could speak reasonably-good Spanish. Aside from sex and food, I think there is no greater pleasure than speaking a foreign language. Every foreign-speaking immigrant should be required to learn English, and every English-speaking citizen or resident should be required to learn a foreign language.

I felt great national shame to see (when I lived in Mexico) how many American retirees lived in Mexico, and in spite of having abundant free time on their hands, had lived there for years without ever learning Spanish.

There is a pattern among Mexicans, at least in the northern states where I have always lived, and I think this pattern is typical of immigrants from all cultures: The first generation, being poor, uneducated, and subjected to long hours of hard work, learns a few words of English, but never becomes fluent. The second generation speaks Spanish in the home with their parents, but learns English in school at an early age and becomes fully bilingual, much more so than I could ever hope to become, as late in life as I learned Spanish. This generation speaks English around its own kids, so the third generation speaks English only, and has lost the ancestral language, which is a shame, because in losing the language, they have narrowed their own horizons.

But since Mexico is right next door, there's always a steady stream of new first-generation immigrants, which fosters the mistaken impression that Mexicans are refusing to learn English.

There is no way to prevent immigrants from coming into the country without building something like the Berlin wall, several thousand miles long, with armed guards and machine-gun towers every 100 yards along its length, and several hundred Coast Guard ships patrolling the border waters of both coasts.

But as several posters have pointed out (myself included) there is no job citizens would not do if the pay were dignified. And if businesses stopped hiring undocumented workers, Mexicans would eventually learn there were no jobs here and they'd stop coming.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 4 2007, 04:14 PM) [snapback]435710[/snapback]</div>

Daniel, if they did that they may have to raise their prices because they would not want to take a profit hit! If they raised their prices the American public would not stand for such things and would buy from the cheaper unethical competitor (enter any big corp. you want here, I thought of Walmart).

So see, we have no direct effect on other countries due to our purchasing practices. Damn conspiracy theorists!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ May 4 2007, 04:25 PM) [snapback]435715[/snapback]</div>

I'm not sure if you are arguing against paying workers a living wage, or being sarcastic. I will assume the later.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IAO @ May 4 2007, 06:35 PM) [snapback]435700[/snapback]</div>

I'll give you that point. I got riled to begin with when I read the comment about white men & their fat bellies by ??? Actually I'm flexible in many ways, but on immigration I am not. I don't have anything personal against anyone, but I liked the way the US was in 1960. Too many changes since then and none of them helping me in any way.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ May 4 2007, 07:05 PM) [snapback]435708[/snapback]</div>

OK, we're even on who each other is or was. I also read alot and have lots of life exp. I don't consider a person ignorant if he/she has weighed both sides of a topic and made a decision based on the evidence presented. I have never liked immigration. We have too many people in this country now. Sorry to hear about your father. I had a mean drunk uncle who scared the hell out of me when I was a kid. My old man was never in the picture.

Being a white man here is no bargain. It's getting so 25% of all jobs advertised want applicants to speak spanish or don't apply. I am 56 and will never speak any foreign language. It stinks not getting a shot at a good job because Hispanics refuse to learn english. Around here I see many Hispanics driving around, but not in the vehicles you see. Rednecks drive big pickups & yuppies drive fancy SUV's & high end cars.

The way I see it the root of this problem comes from the poor of Mexico & other Latin America countries being screwed by the ruling elites. The border fence should be built and our laws enforced. If my g-parents had to come through Ellis is. & learn english why should 3rd worlders get a free pass at taxpayers expense?

Around here many of them refuse to learn english or assimulate into our culture. I don't hate them, I hate what's going on. Our govt. refuses to do anything to fix the problem as they're making money off of the illegals. I have no love for it or big corporations. They all come from the same "club" and I'm not in it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 4 2007, 07:14 PM) [snapback]435710[/snapback]</div>

I grew up in CT where everyone spoke english. There were no hispanics in the schools I attended so there was no need to learn another language. Opinions vary for sure, but the problem is real. I direct any hate at our govt. & big business. They know exactly what they're doing and it is about making more money.

The Mexican govt. and other S. American govts. do nothing for the workers. They steal all their country's wealth and gladly send their poor here. I don't like how the US is changing. It only makes it harder for me. Nothing our govt. ever does is for Americans. But, by God we can fund a war that will never be won. I hope the next President changes the direction we've been forced to go in. Wars aren't healthy for any living things. Our people need a break from all this BS. The stress levels are too high and danger is close by waiting to strike again. That border fence needs to be built to keep some very bad humans out. We didn't learn a darn thing by 9 11. it's just bus. as usual. Money talks.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Walker1 @ May 4 2007, 11:43 PM) [snapback]435848[/snapback]</div>

I hear you about having to have Spanish to work in the US. In Atlanta, that is starting to be more and more of a requirement for a job. The Hispanics can barely speak a word of English and be hired, but employers want us to speak fluent Spanish to be hired.

I took Spanish in High School, and have been to Mexico a half dozen times. My Dad was Texan and spoke a little basic Spanish. I understand a lot of spanish that is spoken around me and try to learn a little each time I have the opportunity (which lately is a lot). I have no problem in learning another language, but at my age, it is a shame to be penalized for it.


I am sure some of these issues will level out. In Georgia there is much more of a big push to have our kids learn Spanish at school. They are holding our kids back, so the hispanic kids can catch up. A great thing is that children from both sides catch on quickly, but it is a shame to slow our kids down (since our education system is lame enough). My friends who teach, are having the biggest problem with the parents of hispanics, refusing to learn English. It also keeps the children from "practicing English" at home, so the learning curve is slow.

My 3 nieces in California, speak fluent Spanish.

The foreman on the landscaping crew at my condos is from El Salvador (and legal), and he has asked me to only speak English, so he can learn more. His English is amazing. He is making his crew speak mainly in English when they are on the clock because he wants them to continue to find work if they stay in the States.

 

what i don't understand is the american opposition to learning other languages. i have a friend in belgium who speaks something like 10 languages fluently. i have a friend in spain who works in a real touristy town, in a hotel no less. the american tourists so rarely speak more than a word or 2 of spanish, but she knows pretty decent english!

i can agree that if you want to come to a country that speaks english and be a productive part of it, you need to learn the language. but i don't agree that americans are "too good" to go and learn other languages and should just flat-out refuse to do so, because that's just arrogant and short-sighted.

i had the opportunity to learn a few phrases in chinese from a postdoc where i work, and she was thrilled to teach me. nobody else she has worked with here has been interested in her language, so long as she was able to speak theirs. that, to me, sounds like a real opportunity wasted. to learn about another country that i might not live to see myself, another language, another culture. i say we can never know too much about the people around us.

 

I grew up in CA. and never had a problem with immigrants. Now when I went to TX to visit family I did run into a couple of Immigrants who were either mentally disabled to an extent or were just absolute morons. They were working in the Christmas tree lot and didn’t speak English and when my cousin spoke Spanish they acted like they didn’t understand him. I thought maybe they are from Brazil and tried what little Portuguese I know and that had no affect. All we were looking for was the restrooms. We went to complain to the and he pulled this no speak English line on us and looked very surprised when my cousin started speaking fluent Spanish. He called the workers over and all the sudden they speak Spanish. Now that stuff makes me mad. You come to my country and want to discriminate against me. I don’t blame all immigrants for those few but that does make me mad. We didn’t buy anything from that lot and went to the next tree lot. Again like only two workers spoke English but the others when spoken to in Spanish they were helpful.

I know in many European country’s they teach English as a required class in their school. In Germany students must know German (obviously), English, and choose another language to graduate. What is wrong with teaching Spanish in our schools if it is a predominant language after all our neighbors in bordering countries speak English to the north and Spanish to the south. Remember Germany tried playing the superior country to it neighbors; twice last century.

I know it sucks that things have changed over 50 years but you cant change the fact that things will change.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 4 2007, 05:32 PM) [snapback]435749[/snapback]</div>

It was most definately the later my friend.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Walker1 @ May 4 2007, 08:43 PM) [snapback]435848[/snapback]</div>

There is definately some common ground in there.

When one looks at all of our problems as a nation there is a common theme and one which echos in all of recorded history. It would do us good to examine that history and try to learn from it and change our path. I suggest reading books like "Ishmael" ~ Daniel Quinn, "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight" ~ Thom Hartman, "Collapse" ~ Jared Diamond, "The Nature of Design" ~ David W. Orr, and "Natural Capitalism" ~ Paul Hawken, Amory and Hunter Lovins.. etc. These books give some good insight to our ancient and modern histories and the trends that go us where we are and the trends that destroyed historic civilizations. At our current level of consumption of natural resources there is no way we can shut ourselves off from the rest of the world and become self sufficient, which gives us the greatest stability and resiliance to natural climatic changes and other external factors. Instead we have to rely on other nations for the materials we need and thus cannot afford to squander our political good will. Should we loose out amicable relations then we will be forced to attain those resources by force of arms. See a pattern emerging here? This is why people like David Korten and Mikhail Sergeyevich Gorbachev, support the ideas of a global community where we all help eachother to move beyond poverty and into an era of equality beyond ones local race or nation. Population is our most dire threat and it is in the most impoverished nations that birth rates are out of control. My opinion states that to help reduce the population growth rate we must aid these developing countries to become self sufficient and build up their own economies in an effort to allow them the technological abilities to use their resources efficiently without contributing to ecological breakdown which nearly always brings about social and political chaos. You know where most terrorists come from?

I'm rambling now but some of you get the basic idea. Is it a pipe dream? Maybe, but how else do we proceed? Do we follow the same paths our ancestors did? The same paths that lead to the collapse of the peoples of Easter Island? The Anasazi? The Hokokam? The Greek? The Mayan? The Roman? Sumerians? Othe Pitcairn Islanders? Or do we choose a new path?

Here are some of the key factors Diamond et.al use to describe contributing factors to civilizational collapse.

"Diamond lists eight factors which have historically contributed to the collapse of past societies:

Deforestation and habitat destruction
Soil problems (erosion, salinization, and soil fertility losses)
Water management problems
Overhunting
Overfishing
Effects of introduced species on native species
Human population growth
Increased per-capita impact of people
Further he says four new factors may contribute to the weakening and collapse of present and future societies:

Human-caused climate change
Buildup of toxic chemicals in the environment
Energy shortages
Full human utilization of the Earth’s photosynthetic capacity
Diamond also states that "it would be absurd to claim that environmental damage must be a major factor in all collapses: the collapse of the Soviet Union is a modern counter-example, and the destruction of Carthage by Rome in 146 B.C. is an ancient one. It's obviously true that military or economic factors alone may suffice""

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IAO @ May 5 2007, 07:23 AM) [snapback]436006[/snapback]</div>

This surprises me. I've never been to Texas (except once, briefly, before I spoke Spanish) but everywhere I've met Spanish-speakers (California, New Mexico, Mexico, and Spain) they've been delighted to meet a gringo who speaks relatively good Spanish. In fact, my first year in Mexico, when I only spoke a wee bit of Spanish, very haltingly and very badly, they were delighted that I was using their language.

Maybe you just ran into a couple of jerks. There are jerks everywhere.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 5 2007, 07:40 PM) [snapback]436185[/snapback]</div>

That is what we though because every were else everyone is nice and when my cousin is not around they try to help as best they can. This is really the only problem I have ever had and like I said you cant blame an entire race because of a couple of bad apples. If I started doing that I would have to hate myself for being British German and French (mother German French father British.)

Dealing with Spanish immigrants is easy dealing with Iraqis who speak no English and are in need of medical care is hard.

 

Yes, young people should learn spanish so they aren't denied good jobs like me.