Mel Gibson's antisemitic rant

efusco · Aug 2, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Aug 2 2006, 12:00 PM) [snapback]296369[/snapback]</div>

The IF part only means the crime has not been completed yet, as I thought I had made clear.

Oppostion to a group is not the same thing as racist hatred inciting to violence. Really Evan, I know you are smarter than that.

Here, try these out:
"Please, please kill every doctor on the planet"
"The only good doctor is a dead doctor"

Now, in the second statement I didn't actually *ask* for anything. I was just voicing an opinion; heck, I was only making an objective observation, based on number of medical errors made by dead doctors. Anybody who took my words to mean that doctors should be hunt down and killed is probably a wierdo, and has grossly misunderstood me. Thanks for the understanding, and IF a colleague, friend, or family of yours is victimized tommorow, just remember you excused my actions, today. [/b]
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I AM smarter than that, my comments are clear and I'm stating that you're trying to make a point on a far fetched hypothetical.

And IF someone killed one of those individuals and blamed it on your words I would excuse your words, b/c it wasn't your "action", it was the killer.

FWIW, in case you haven't deduced it yet, I think that the 'hate crimes' thing sucks. It is a punishment for crimes of thought. To say that my murder of my neighbor is somehow worse b/c I hated them for being a jew than b/c I hated them for letting their dog bark all night is preposterous. But it's the politically proper thing to do right now so that's the law. I think it'll be successfully challenged in the supreme court one day, but who knows.

Schmika · Aug 2, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Aug 2 2006, 09:07 AM) [snapback]296195[/snapback]</div>

A good beginning
Even Mel does not agree with you. Everyones opinons dont stink because they are not all hateful and prejudiced. Drunk people say things they mean given the right level of blood alcohol. If you dont think what he said underscores his true thinking that is your problem - i guess if someone comes up to you and says he is going to beat the crap out of you, you wont believe him until he hits you??

<SNIP>
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And where do you get your knowledge about drunks. Mine comes from 27 years of dealing with them face to face. Drunks say stupid things, drunks have threatened to do stupid things to me and my family. Drunks will think and say all sorts of illogical things that can't even happen. Drunks come in ALL types.

I give about 1ounce of credence to what drunks say. You, being not drunk, worry me!

dbermanmd · Aug 2, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Aug 2 2006, 02:02 PM) [snapback]296419[/snapback]</div>

And where do you get your knowledge about drunks. Mine comes from 27 years of dealing with them face to face. Drunks say stupid things, drunks have threatened to do stupid things to me and my family. Drunks will think and say all sorts of illogical things that can't even happen. Drunks come in ALL types.

I give about 1ounce of credence to what drunks say. You, being not drunk, worry me!
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How do you know that i am not drunk for fact? You have never hung out in a bar a not ever once see a drunk guy threaten to hit someone and then actually take a swing at him? Never?

And if that is what you honestly think after all that experience - well that speaks for itself.

Question: in your TWENTYSEVEN years of experience with thousands of drunks how many have spewed anti-Semetic remarks?

Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Mystery Squid · Aug 2, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Aug 2 2006, 02:17 PM) [snapback]296425[/snapback]</div>

How do you know that i am not drunk for fact? [/b]
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ROTFLMAO!!!! THAT was GREAT!!!

EricGo · Aug 2, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Aug 2 2006, 01:40 PM) [snapback]296406[/snapback]</div>

I AM smarter than that, my comments are clear and I'm stating that you're trying to make a point on a far fetched hypothetical.

And IF someone killed one of those individuals and blamed it on your words I would excuse your words, b/c it wasn't your "action", it was the killer.

FWIW, in case you haven't deduced it yet, I think that the 'hate crimes' thing sucks. It is a punishment for crimes of thought. To say that my murder of my neighbor is somehow worse b/c I hated them for being a jew than b/c I hated them for letting their dog bark all night is preposterous. But it's the politically proper thing to do right now so that's the law. I think it'll be successfully challenged in the supreme court one day, but who knows.
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No... you were saying that 'opposition' and race hatred are the same. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

As for your position on hate crimes, I had not deduced it, but it does explain your defense of Gibson. Words have tremendous power, wars and genocides have resulted from them. Libel and slander laws are admissions of their power -- but I guess you want to rid us of those, too ?

efusco · Aug 2, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Aug 2 2006, 01:38 PM) [snapback]296450[/snapback]</div>

No... you were saying that 'opposition' and race hatred are the same. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

As for your position on hate crimes, I had not deduced it, but it does explain your defense of Gibson. Words have tremendous power, wars and genocides have resulted from them. Libel and slander laws are admissions of their power -- but I guess you want to rid us of those, too ?
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Geez Eric and you just trying to be dense and inflammatory?
I never said "opposition and race hatred are the same"...I'm not even sure what you mean by that.

As for my position on hate crimes, it has nothing to do with slander, libel or anything like that. I'm a strong believer in the power of words, probably more so than you are. But that said I just can't see a connection b/w the reason for a crime like murder having anything do do with the fact of the murder or the punishment. The individual is no 'less dead' if he was murdered b/c he was gay or b/c he spit in your face during an arguement. As I say, this is just a subtle way of punishing crimes of thought and belief wrapped up in a word that no one likes.

IsrAmeriPrius · Aug 2, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Aug 2 2006, 07:39 AM) [snapback]296254[/snapback]</div>

I had heard his BA was more like .16, but regardless your point about his chronic alcoholism is dead on, at that level he certainly wasn't a raging drunk unaware of what he was saying.
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I have had a chance to read the arrest report. He blew 0.12% on the PAS device in the field; the results of the later tests at the Lost Hills Sheriff Station were similar.

Based upon almost three decades experience in the criminal justice system, 0.12% blood alcohol is far from the point of being delirious for most people, especially those who are regular drinkers. Under the influence for purposed of operating a motor vehicle? Yes; in California it is illegal to drive with blood alcohol level of 0.08% and above. For Mel Gibson this was just enough to get over his inhibitions and loosen his tongue so that his true self was exposed for the world to witness.

And yes, it is not a crime to be an anti-Semite. It is only immoral.

efusco · Aug 2, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Aug 2 2006, 02:00 PM) [snapback]296465[/snapback]</div>

For Mel Gibson this was just enough to get over his inhibitions and loosen his tongue so that his true self was exposed for the world to witness.[/b]
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That, in itself, is a big assumption as to this being his "true self". Have you never said things just to piss people off? If he deduced that the guy was a jew and wanted to piss him off and try to make him do something stupid he'd find something he thinks could make him lose control or his whits, and nothing will do that more than picking on one's race/religion.

I'm not saying that this is the case, I don't know what was in Mel's head at the time. But my point is that neither do you or anyone else but Mel himself.

I do not defend Mel's actions. I absolute think they should throw the book at him for the DWI. I think it's repulsive that he made the anti-semetic statements that he made. But I also don't believe that was a crime or that it deserves any more punishment by any establishment. If it offends you personally and you want to punish him then don't see his movies. Encourage your friends and neighbors to boycott as well. But don't jump to unfounded assumptions about far fetched reprecussions of a few moments of an angry outburst.

Mystery Squid · Aug 2, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Aug 2 2006, 03:00 PM) [snapback]296465[/snapback]</div>

And yes, it is not a crime to be an anti-Semite. It is only immoral.
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Which just happens to be 100% subjective...

Yeah, heaven forbid people take personal responsibility for any of their actions!!!!

efusco · Aug 2, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Aug 2 2006, 02:00 PM) [snapback]296465[/snapback]</div>

I have had a chance to read the arrest report. He blew 0.12% on the PAS device in the field; the results of the later tests at the Lost Hills Sheriff Station were similar.

Based upon almost three decades experience in the criminal justice system, 0.12% blood alcohol is far from the point of being delirious for most people, especially those who are regular drinkers.[/b]
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I agree with you and Eric on that point, that's what I was trying to say above. At .12 I'm tipsy and giddy, but far from 'drunk'.

subarutoo · Aug 2, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Aug 1 2006, 01:03 PM) [snapback]295845[/snapback]</div>

If you would please cite the specific portion of the Bill of Rights that says there is right to say whatever you want to say - no strings attached - and that there are no potential repercussions for what you say or that you do not share a responsiblity to understand what you are saying and its possible ramifications.

Yes we have all made mistakes - but I would hope we have all not uttered anti-Semetic remarks that were obviously more than just a drunk man running his mouth - those words of hate are pre-meditated - and were obviously let forth when the alcohol disinhibited his normal mental checks and balances.

The future will tell how he handles this - we will all be witness to it. And it is our goal to heal to forgive to gain insight and knowledge from mistakes - not to whitewash them!
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If our founding fathers worried about "repercussions" related to free speech, we would still be a British colony. Along with those rights there is also the implied responsibility to accept other freedoms, such as religion and tolerance of others. Gibson is not as wise as most of the Priuschatters, but give the guy a break.

EricGo · Aug 2, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Aug 2 2006, 03:00 PM) [snapback]296464[/snapback]</div>

Geez Eric and you just trying to be dense and inflammatory?[/b]
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I could ask the same question, but why be rhetorical ? To jog your memory, your earlier post:

So yes, anti-semetic statements made during or surrounding the commission of a crime against an individual that is jewish would constitute a hate crime by the Cali penal code definition. But stating one's opposition to a group isn't, in itself, any kind of crime.[/b]
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You sentence is a response to my quoting Gibson that Jews are the cause of all wars. Just his opinion, eh ?

As for my position on hate crimes, it has nothing to do with slander, libel or anything like that. I'm a strong believer in the power of words, probably more so than you are. But that said I just can't see a connection b/w the reason for a crime like murder having anything do do with the fact of the murder or the punishment. The individual is no 'less dead' if he was murdered b/c he was gay or b/c he spit in your face during an arguement. As I say, this is just a subtle way of punishing crimes of thought and belief wrapped up in a word that no one likes.[/b]
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You are arguing 'harm' (and incidentally, there *is* reason to think crime motivated by hate are more injurious than without hate, the dead person aside), while I am talking about culpability.

Just how different is encouraging crime, to requesting crime, to ordering crime, to personally doing the crime ? Not thoughts, words and actions.

Incidentally, you may take offense, but arguing actions (and words ARE actions) and not thoughts is a core Jewish philosophy. And in a fit of irony, I will compare it to the Sermon on the mount, Matthew 5, sentences 27 and 28: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shall not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosover looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

dbermanmd · Aug 2, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(subarutoo @ Aug 2 2006, 03:14 PM) [snapback]296473[/snapback]</div>

If our founding fathers worried about "repercussions" related to free speech, we would still be a British colony. Along with those rights there is also the implied responsibility to accept other freedoms, such as religion and tolerance of others. Gibson is not as wise as most of the Priuschatters, but give the guy a break.
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I will because I believe in a persons ability to change and correct wrongs. But, I will wait for more evidence than just his words - let me see some actions. He promised to give the Yom Kippur "sermon" to a synagogue this year -- time will tell, not words. I am glad he is taking his alcohol induced words more seriously than most of those on this BB do.

Schmika · Aug 3, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Aug 2 2006, 02:17 PM) [snapback]296425[/snapback]</div>

How do you know that i am not drunk for fact? You have never hung out in a bar a not ever once see a drunk guy threaten to hit someone and then actually take a swing at him? Never?

And if that is what you honestly think after all that experience - well that speaks for itself.

Question: in your TWENTYSEVEN years of experience with thousands of drunks how many have spewed anti-Semetic remarks?

Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
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I didn't say it DIDN'T happen. I was talking about a blanket statement that it ALWAYS happens.

Anti- Semetic, Anti-Gay, anti Black, anti christian...I'm screwing your wife, I screwed you mother, you screw your daughter, you like it in the a**, blah, blah, blah, shall I go on?

Sitting in a bar listening to drunks is nothing, try confronting a drunk and arresting them or trying to reason with them (not a friend or family member either)

How many times have you had to deal with a drunk in that kind of context (which this was, BTW)

OH, and 95% of drunks I deal with in that manner and see later always apologize and unsually don';t even remember what they said.

IsrAmeriPrius · Aug 3, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Aug 3 2006, 09:24 AM) [snapback]297002[/snapback]</div>

Sitting in a bar listening to drunks is nothing, try confronting a drunk and arresting them or trying to reason with them (not a friend or family member either)

How many times have you had to deal with a drunk in that kind of context (which this was, BTW)

OH, and 95% of drunks I deal with in that manner and see later always apologize and unsually don';t even remember what they said.
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Gibson was NOT drunk. He is an experienced drinker, to put it mildly. At 0.12% blood alcohol, he was under the influence for purposes of operating a motor vehicle. That being said, most people who get drunk don't parrot "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion." There's an old Latin saying: In vino veritas, which means that under the influence of alcohol, a man's true nature reveals itself.

dbermanmd · Aug 3, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Aug 3 2006, 02:38 PM) [snapback]297118[/snapback]</div>

Gibson was NOT drunk. He is an experienced drinker, to put it mildly. At 0.12% blood alcohol, he was under the influence for purposes of operating a motor vehicle. That being said, most people who get drunk don't parrot "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion." There's an old Latin saying: In vino veritas, which means that under the influence of alcohol, a man's true nature reveals itself.
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Exactly!
Some amazing people here on this BB

Schmika · Aug 4, 2006

See how things get twisted. MY POINT was it is incorrect to make BLANKET assumptions about people's motivations for actions.

NO ONE except GOD himselt KNOWS what a person is thnking and why he does it.

I am making NO judgements or claims about Mel Gibson....I am making claims that everyone here who thinks they know the absolute truth about Mel Gibson is simply expressing their opinon (educated one or not)

Judge not...Lest ye be Judged!!!!!!!

larkinmj · Aug 4, 2006

This was posted on mcsweeneys.net:

LET'S JUST GET
MEL OUT OF OUR SYSTEM
AND THEN MOVE ON.
- - - -

Substances
and Their Effects
on Mel Gibson.
By Wendy Molyneux
- - - -

Beer: anti-Semitism

Wine: hatred of Gypsies

Aspirin: mild disdain for babies

Chocolate: distrust of squirrels

Iced tea: quizzing mentally disabled Wal-Mart greeter about his involvement in 9/11

Oxygen: being a total douchebag

Mystery Squid · Aug 5, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Aug 3 2006, 02:38 PM) [snapback]297118[/snapback]</div>

Gibson was NOT drunk. He is an experienced drinker, to put it mildly. At 0.12% blood alcohol, he was under the influence for purposes of operating a motor vehicle. That being said, most people who get drunk don't parrot "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion." There's an old Latin saying: In vino veritas, which means that under the influence of alcohol, a man's true nature reveals itself.
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Boy, we need to get a few drinks in you and start discussing the Palestinian/Israeli situation... I'm sure some gems would come out of that one...

:lol:

I'll bet if we liquor'd up all the folks who post on FHOP frequently, we'd get a total reversal of personalities... The most liberal would reveal themselves to be the most Nazi and hate filled. The most vile, the nicest folks you could ever meet... :lol:

rufaro · Aug 6, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Aug 5 2006, 11:18 AM) [snapback]298268[/snapback]</div>

I'll bet if we liquor'd up all the folks who post on FHOP frequently, we'd get a total reversal of personalities... The most liberal would reveal themselves to be the most Nazi and hate filled. The most vile, the nicest folks you could ever meet... :lol:
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I expect there would probably be at least one or two exceptions to that.

Mel Gibson's antisemitic rant

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