1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Featured Methanol reformulated fuel cell car

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by bwilson4web, Apr 28, 2018.

  1. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    19,856
    8,159
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2018 Chevy Volt
    Model:
    Premium
    I duno . . . . . or should i say, 'what about these published #'s ?? "

    How can I compare the energy content of alternative fuels and gasoline or diesel? - Greater New Haven Clean Cities Coalition

    Their data is showing e100 as only having less that 76⅓ btu's as compared to gasoline's 116 btu's - much less diesel's 128btu's. Maybe that data begs the question - how much less hydrogen via an auto's membrane converter do you get out of the energy via raising crops (costing energy to raise corn or sugar cane etc - petro chemical fertilizer/pesticides) & then (costing ever more energy - reformation) turning the ethanol into electricity via the hydrogen membrane ... then compressing the hydrogen. Never mind the the costly infrastructure or hydrogen storage ... or main facility time involved, if 2 or more fuel cell cars are waiting to refill. Seems like a lot of processes just to get you down the road. Especially compared to just plugging into your PV array where the only loss is DC to AC conversion, then back to battery DC.
    .
     
    #21 hill, May 9, 2018
    Last edited: May 9, 2018
    bwilson4web likes this.
  2. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,048
    11,516
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    While a fuel's energy content will relate to how much off it is converted to usable work, it isn't a measure of an engine's, fuel cell's, or the overall car's efficiency. The Prius engine is 40% thermally efficient at peak conditions. While the hybrid system and battery allow that engine to run under those conditions than if it were in a non-hybrid, the engine isn't always doing so. Then that thermal efficiency only applies when running on gasoline. Ethanol has different properties from gasoline, which means an engine designed to run on one won't operate as efficiently when using the other.

    With the massive, BEV sized battery in the Nissan FCEV van, the fuel cell can run at its efficient point virtually all the time. While I think this isn't so of this fuel cell, it could be 60% thermally efficient.

    I am not supporting ethanol. I actually think there are better alternatives for a renewable gasoline replacement. A BEV is not going to work for every person and role. But Brazil has chosen to embrace it, which gives Nissan a place to test these FCEV's out on public roads, generating the data to answer your question.

    An importantly, you have missed an important fact about Nissan's solid oxide fuel cell vehicles.

    The reformer to free the hydrogen from the ethanol is on the car. It even uses waste heat from the fuel cell to help run the reformer.

    All the issues that exist with using hydrogen as a fuel do not apply to these ethanol FCEVs. The extreme pressures used with hydrogen cars are only needed in order to store an usable amount of the element in the tank. IIRC, the Mirai's fuel line pressures are only 200psi; that's lower than what diesel and direct injection gas engines. The real low temperature chilling is only needed for faster refueling times, but this FCEV isn't getting filled with hydrogen.

    To refuel, this Nissan van simply pulled into a Brazilian gas station, and fills up from the E100 pump that is already there. This infrastructure is already built in Brazil. The only thing that needs to happen for Nissan to sell these SOFCEVs there, is likely just in lowering the fuel cell and reformer cost. Battery costs have already dropped.

    Since Brazil is using ethanol for fuel, what is the most efficient way to use it as a fuel. An ICE designed for ethanol is better than a gasoline design that likely most of their cars get. Better yet is to put that ICE into a hybrid. The costs today favor that hybrid over an ethanol FCEV, but that may not remain true in the future. It is even better if the hybrid and FCEV have a plug. Being used in a range extender will lower the demand for ethanol for fuel, reducing the damage done in producing it, and maybe allowing less damaging but costlier methods of production.