Migra migra

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BellBoy @ May 2 2006, 12:29 PM) [snapback]248661[/snapback]</div>

No semantics here. It is not against the law to enter without permission, and a person who enters undocumented has not broken any law. They cannot be charged with breaking any law. It is NOT against the laws of this country to be here undocumented.

I know this confuses you. The law confuses everyone. Even lawyers. But the fact remains that it is not against the law. It is not a criminal act. And your assertion that it is against the law does not make it so. Only the courts can say, in the end, what is or is not against the law, and having worked in an office that specializes in farmworker law and immigration law, I just happen to know this rather obscure and curious fact. It is not against the law to enter the US without permission. All they can do is kick you out. They cannot charge you with a criminal act.

And the proof of that is that nobody is ever charged with a crime for having entered the US undocumented. With all the xenophobia and demogogery in the country, do you really think no prosecutor would ever have charged an undocumented immigrant with the "crime" of entering "illegally"? Surely one prosecutor somewhere would bring charges if he possibly could! But they never have because they cannot. It ain't against the law. Period.

You are the one twisting words when you insist that a person who enters "illegally" is "breaking the law."

Rather amusing, really. I was quite surprised when I first learned about it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 2 2006, 07:59 AM) [snapback]248538[/snapback]</div>

U.S. Code as of: 01/06/03

Section 1325. Improper entry by alien

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection;
misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States
at any time or place other than as designated by immigration
officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration
officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United
States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the
willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or
imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or
imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(b ) Improper time or place; civil penalties
Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to
enter) the United States at a time or place other than as
designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil
penalty of -
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or
attempted entry); or
(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of
an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under
this subsection.
Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not
in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be
imposed.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_s...itle=8&sec=1325

Daniel, exactly what volunteer work in a legal aid office did you do? I'm thinking you were actually cleaning toilets, because that is the only place I can think of where you could have learned to deal with the crap you try to pass as fact!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sufferin' Prius Envy @ May 4 2006, 03:33 AM) [snapback]249591[/snapback]</div>

I translated documents from Spanish to English for immigration applications; I translated letters from English to Spanish, and Spanish to English, for correspondence between the lawyers and Spanish-speaking clients; less often, I interpreted in conversations between lawyers and clients (it was usually the full-time paralegal who did that -- interpreting was not my strong point); I answered phones because most of the people who phoned the office spoke Spanish (the clients were migrant farmworkers - nobody else is willing to do such backbreaking work under the scorching sun for such low wages); and I phoned clients when one of the lawyers needed to ask for or pass along information about a case. Sometimes, when nothing needed translating, I put client information into the computer that generated the immigration application forms, and I did minor maintenance and software troubleshooting on the office computers, because the IT person was in an office 5 hours away and only visited our office twice a year, or in emergencies, so that with a phone call I could often save her 10 hours of driving and an overnight away from home. For a while I did some paralegal work, but I was not comfortable with that because I do not have sufficient organizational skills, and did not do it long. (Technically, everything I did in the office was "paralegal" because I was working for the lawyers, but actually handling cases was what I regarded as the real paralegal work.)

I got the highest praise for my work from the lawyers, who said they had never had such a good translator in their office; from the full-time paralegal, who is bilingual from childhood and said my translations were better than she could do herself (translation is a skill in itself, beyond simply being able to communicate in both languages); and from the clients, who said my Spanish was excellent, if a bit formal. I also got the highest praise from the IT person, who trusted me completely because I never tried to mess with the computers without calling her, and I was more computer-literate than anyone else in the office.

And I find your tone and comments to be vulgar and offensive.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 4 2006, 07:26 AM) [snapback]249667[/snapback]</div>

You forgot to add 'truthful'.

BTW...thanks S.P.E. for posting that...I could have saved some time posting that to prove my point.

 

Not only is it a crime to enter the U.S. illegally, it is a crime to "harbor" or employ an illegal alien. You can go to jail for 5 years for even encouraging an alien to remain in the US.

Federal Immigration and Nationality Act
Section 8 USC 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv)(B)(iii)

"Any person who . . . encourages or induces an alien to . . . reside . . . knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such . . . residence is . . . in violation of law, shall be punished as provided . . . for each alien in respect to whom such a violation occurs . . . fined under title 18 . . . imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both."

Section 274 felonies under the federal Immigration and Nationality Act, INA 274A(a)(1)(A):

A person (including a group of persons, business, organization, or local government) commits a federal felony when she or he:

* assists an alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or

* encourages that alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or
* knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.

Penalties upon conviction include criminal fines, imprisonment, and forfeiture of vehicles and real property used to commit the crime. Anyone employing or contracting with an illegal alien without verifying his or her work authorization status is guilty of a misdemeanor. Aliens and employers violating immigration laws are subject to arrest, detention, and seizure of their vehicles or property. In addition, individuals or entities who engage in racketeering enterprises that commit (or conspire to commit) immigration-related felonies are subject to private civil suits for treble damages and injunctive relief.

Recruitment and Employment of Illegal Aliens

It is unlawful to hire an alien, to recruit an alien, or to refer an alien for a fee, knowing the alien is unauthorized to work in the United States. It is equally unlawful to continue to employ an alien knowing that the alien is unauthorized to work. Employers may give preference in recruitment and hiring to a U.S. citizen over an alien with work authorization only where the U.S. citizen is equally or better qualified. It is unlawful to hire an individual for employment in the United States without complying with employment eligibility verification requirements. Requirements include examination of identity documents and completion of Form I-9 for every employee hired. Employers must retain all I-9s, and, with three days' advance notice, the forms must be made available for inspection. Employment includes any service or labor performed for any type of remuneration within the United States, with the exception of sporadic domestic service by an individual in a private home. Day laborers or other casual workers engaged in any compensated activity (with the above exception) are employees for purposes of immigration law. An employer includes an agent or anyone acting directly or indirectly in the interest of the employer. For purposes of verfication of authorization to work, employer also means an independent contractor, or a contractor other than the person using the alien labor. The use of temporary or short-term contracts cannot be used to circumvent the employment authorization verification requirements. If employment is to be for less than the usual three days allowed for completing the I-9 Form requirement, the form must be completed immediately at the time of hire.

An employer has constructive knowledge that an employee is an illegal unauthorized worker if a reasonable person would infer it from the facts. Constructive knowledge constituting a violation of federal law has been found where (1) the I-9 employment eligibility form has not been properly completed, including supporting documentation, (2) the employer has learned from other individuals, media reports, or any source of information available to the employer that the alien is unauthorized to work, or (3) the employer acts with reckless disregard for the legal consequences of permitting a third party to provide or introduce an illegal alien into the employer's work force. Knowledge cannot be inferred solely on the basis of an individual's accent or foreign appearance.

Actual specific knowledge is not required. For example, a newspaper article stating that ballrooms depend on an illegal alien work force of dance hostesses was held by the courts to be a reasonable ground for suspicion that unlawful conduct had occurred.

IT IS ILLEGAL FOR NONPROFIT OR RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS to knowingly assist an employer to violate employment sanctions, REGARDLESS OF CLAIMS THAT THEIR CONVICTIONS REQUIRE THEM TO ASSIST ALIENS. Harboring or aiding illegal aliens is not protected by the First Amendment. It is a felony to establish a commercial enterprise for the purpose of evading any provision of federal immigration law. Violators may be fined or imprisoned for up to five years.

Encouraging and Harboring Illegal Aliens

It is a violation of law for any person to conceal, harbor, or shield from detection in any place, including any building or means of transportation, any alien who is in the United States in violation of law. HARBORING MEANS ANY CONDUCT THAT TENDS TO SUBSTANTIALLY FACILITATE AN ALIEN TO REMAIN IN THE U.S. ILLEGALLY. The sheltering need not be clandestine, and harboring covers aliens arrested outdoors, as well as in a building. This provision includes harboring an alien who entered the U.S. legally but has since lost his legal status.

An employer can be convicted of the felony of harboring illegal aliens who are his employees if he takes actions in reckless disregard of their illegal status, such as ordering them to obtain false documents, altering records, obstructing INS inspections, or taking other actions that facilitate the alien's illegal employment. Any person who within any 12-month period hires ten or more individuals with actual knowledge that they are illegal aliens or unauthorized workers is guilty of felony harboring. It is also a felony to encourage or induce an alien to come to or reside in the U.S. knowing or recklessly disregarding the fact that the alien's entry or residence is in violation of the law. This crime applies to any person, rather than just employers of illegal aliens. Courts have ruled that "encouraging" includes counseling illegal aliens to continue working in the U.S. or assisting them to complete applications with false statements or obvious errors. The fact that the alien is a refugee fleeing persecution is not a defense to this felony, since U.S. law and the UN Protocol on Refugees both require that a refugee must report to immigration authorities without delay upon entry to the U.S.

The penalty for felony harboring is a fine and imprisonment for up to five years. The penalty for felony alien smuggling is a fine and up to ten years' imprisonment. Where the crime causes serious bodily injury or places the life of any person in jeopardy, the penalty is a fine and up to twenty years' imprisonment. If the criminal smuggling or harboring results in the death of any person, the penalty can include life imprisonment. Convictions for aiding, abetting, or conspiracy to commit alien smuggling or harboring, carry the same penalties. Courts can impose consecutive prison sentences for each alien smuggled or harbored. A court may order a convicted smuggler to pay restitution if the alien smuggled qualifies as a victim under the Victim and Witness Protection Act. Conspiracy to commit crimes of sheltering, harboring, or employing illegal aliens is a separate federal offense punishable by a fine of up to $10,000 or five years' imprisonment.

Enforcement

A person or entity having knowledge of a violation or potential violation of employer sanctions provisions may submit a signed written complaint to the INS office with jurisdiction over the business or residence of the potential violator, whether an employer, employee, or agent. The complaint must include the names and addresses of both the complainant and the violator, and detailed factual allegations, including date, time, and place of the potential violation, and the specific conduct alleged to be a violation of employer sanctions. By regulation, the INS will only investigate third-party complaints that have a reasonable probability of validity. Designated INS officers and employees, and all other officers whose duty it is to enforce criminal laws, may make an arrest for violation of smuggling or harboring illegal aliens.

State and local law enforcement officials have the general power to investigate and arrest violators of federal immigration statutes without prior INS knowledge or approval, as long as they are authorized to do so by state law. There is no extant federal limitation on this authority. The 1996 immigration control legislation passed by Congress was intended to encourage states and local agencies to participate in the process of enforcing federal immigration laws. Immigration officers and local law enforcement officers may detain an individual for a brief warrantless interrogation where circumstances create a reasonable suspicion that the individual is illegally present in the U.S. Specific facts constituting a reasonable suspicion include evasive, nervous, or erratic behavior; dress or speech indicating foreign citizenship; and presence in an area known to contain a concentration of illegal aliens. Hispanic appearance alone is not sufficient. Immigration officers and police must have a valid warrant or valid employer's consent to enter workplaces or residences. Any vehicle used to transport or harbor illegal aliens, or used as a substantial part of an activity that encourages illegal aliens to come to or reside in the U.S. may be seized by an immigration officer and is subject to forfeiture. The forfeiture power covers any conveyances used within the U.S.

 

"The concern isn't legal immigrants, it's the illegal immigrants that we, the citizens and government and corporate America have allowed to establish themselves here and now need to find a way to legalize their status or kick them out or something. And we must find a way that's considered fair"

I understand what you are saying. It took my wife and I over 6 years just to get green cards and we had to jump through a lot of hoops and pay a lot of money to lawyers to ensure our legal status every day we were in the U.S. I do agree that society must be founded on a respect for law or will will soon descend into anarchy. The problem is that we are talking about shutting the barn door after the horse is out. People should go through the established (and rediculously archaic) process of legal immigration, but there are already 12 million people here who bypassed that and there are powerful corporate interests that want to break the law. And to be sure, the people who assist or employ illegals are breaking the law and could even go to jail for it (see previous post). So the question is what to do about our failed immigration policies. Since most illegal immigrants are actually hard working people who contribute far more to this country than they take, I would be in favour of some complete reform of our immigration laws that allows these people to legalize their status. Not only that, but I would modernize the legal immigration process so that it does not take 6 years and a lawyer for highly educated people to get permanent resident status. In Canada, a person can receive permanent status without a lawyer in under a year. And they get full health insurance the minute they become landed immigrants. A complete reform of the system is badly overdue, and it won't happen easily.

 

One aspect of illegal immigration that isn't getting the publicity that it should is the recent spate of diseases that had been virtually iradicated un the US. We've had recent outbreaks of Mumps and TB as well as several lesser diseases contagious diseases.

Legal immigrants must show immunization records and be tested before entry into the US so that they comform to our requirements.

 

"One aspect of illegal immigration that isn't getting the publicity that it should is the recent spate of diseases that had been virtually iradicated un the US."

This is a good point, however you have to remember how many native born Americans there are who harbor diseases due to lack of adequate health care. The best answer to this would be for the US to adopt a universal health care system as has nearly every other advanced country in the world.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 4 2006, 07:26 AM) [snapback]249667[/snapback]</div>

I find it quite amusing if you think cleaning toilets and crap vulgar and offensive. Are you saying that as an American citizen, you find that kind of work beneath you?
Maybe I should have the Service Employees International Union (SEIU) call and inform you about the honest and noble profession which is janitorial work.

If it's not the toilet cleaning and “crap†part of my comments which you find vulgar and offensive . . . maybe it is that other part of my post . . . the part which exposes your assertation that “a person who enters undocumented has not broken any law†as utterly nonsensical crap! But that couldn't be it, you didn't comment on that part at all!

Rather than worry about third-grade potty humor, maybe you should be concentrating on your belief system, and trying to figure out just how much of the indoctrination you received at places like that legal aid office was nothing more than pure brainwash crap.

I find most of your political comments vulgar and offensive to my other side of the political spectrum sensibilities :huh: :lol: – and sometimes totally without the merit of fact or law.

Daniel, you are welcome to your beliefs – just don't try to pass them off to others as fact without at least some iota of proof, because if I see it and know it is blatantly false, I will call you on it.

 

"About two years ago, a female teacher in Deming, New Mexico picked up a hitchhiker, supposedly as a good Samaritan (turns out later she actually knew the individual), and transported him to another location in Deming, NM. The teacher was arrested and charged by the Border Patrol for aiding and abetting an illegal alien. If I remember correctly she ended up spending time in jail."

I remember that story. Here in New York, there are people who have sat in jail for years because they entered illegally and no country wants them back.
But realistically, what is to be done? If the illegal immigrants were not a source of profit to the corporations you can be sure there would have been a Berlin style wall along the Mexican (and possibley Canadian) border years ago. As I said before in referring to Japan, an aging and shrinking population, immigrants undoubtedly bring a lot of vitality to this country and most are hard working and family oriented. Just look at the amount of money they send back to their families. You have to admire that. Not exactly criminal behavior, is it? So the whole problem is how to normalize the people here and streamline the legal immigration process.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ May 4 2006, 01:33 PM) [snapback]249840[/snapback]</div>

I agree, there needs to be a way to streamline the legal immigration process. Someone was recently on the local news here in NM complaining that he had been trying for 5 years to have his wife become a legal US citizen. Apparently they did everything by the book but the process is too long and cumbersome.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sufferin' Prius Envy @ May 4 2006, 12:26 PM) [snapback]249836[/snapback]</div>

It is your tone that is insulting and offensive, and your choice of words that is vulgar. You did not say in your post that your fevered brain imagined me to be employed in the noble profession of janitor (when I have stated before that I was a translator) but rather you asserted (in vulgar language) that I got my political ideas from the toilet. I wonder where you got your manners.

To all who have remained civil in this debate: It is indeed illegal to aid and abet an undocumented immigrant, or to employ one. For the rest, I will not respond to the substantive point until I have had a chance to check with my original sources, as I left that office when I moved out of Fargo last fall. It won't happen this week, though, as I'll be out of town and away from the internet over the weekend.