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Featured Motor Mouth: Why hydrogen might be the simple solution to ICE emissions

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Tideland Prius, Apr 29, 2023.

  1. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Why hydrogen might be the simple solution to ICE emissions | Driving
     
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  2. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    There are thermodynamic and economic reasons why this approach, mixing hydrogen with diesel intake air, is likely to be impractical. The energy content of manufactured hydrogen is less than the original energy and feedstock energy. For example, electrolysis makes hydrogen with ~75% of the electricity used. Regardless of the electricity source, it is more efficient to charge a battery and drive an electric motor.

    Not owning or operating a large diesel, I'm content to let others do hydrogen experiments. So far, they seem to require a significant amount of government subsidies. There is one hydrogen risk not addressed.

    Hydrogen has one of the widest ranges of flammability. An intake manifold with a hydrogen-air mix carries a significant risk of explosive disassembly. All it takes is an intake valve leak.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #2 bwilson4web, Apr 29, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2023
  3. jzchen

    jzchen Newbie!

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    I heard/read the (carbon fiber) tanks need replacing every 10 years? I’m afraid that didn’t seem to be factored into the cost?
     
  4. Prashanta

    Prashanta Active Member

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    Sure. But you have to charge when electricity is available. Or build batteries. And you have to build transmission lines to all chargers. It could very well be better to just produce hydrogen in one place and and fuel vehicles in one place. Renewable electricity is getting very inexpensive to the point that cost of energy isn't always the primary consideration.
     
  5. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    I have read about diesel hydrogen enrichment for the sake of extra overall power going back for 10 years or so, but I hadn't heard of it being tuned to reduce carbon output.

    ...Neat!
     
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  6. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    Math is math, and simple solutions are often, NOT.
    My beloved company had a dalliance with huffing H.

    It didn't work well.

    Mechanical issues.
    Expense.
    Dearth of refueling options.
    BEV-like refueling times.

    NOTE!
    We also had two 'bombs' on my last submarine (O2 generators) one of which almost killed us all, so I may be personally biased.
     
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  7. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    First, I like the concept. Ease of modification, and immediate gains.
    I am, however, very apprehensive about anyone claiming something is “free” when it obviously isn’t.

    It may be that the H2 company is footing the bill for the tanks, in which case they should state that.
     
  8. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    Two slight problems:
    1. You still have to get it in the vehicle. Everybody wants to invest in making hydrogen. Nobody is doing much to solve the Compression, Storage, Dispensing (CSD) costs and issues at the Point-of-Sale (POS). It is neither cheap or easy and the recurrent costs at the POS are staggering. Attend a potential investors meeting for POS stations and you'll see why there are so few stations.
    2. Have they even settled whether to use liquid or compressed? Having two different storage and dispensing solutions would only increase costs and confusion.
     
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  9. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Well, the article does make the specific claims that:

    1. Hydra is performing the conversions for free
    2. Filling the H2 system takes less time than filling the diesel tanks*
    3. Nothing bad happens if you don't have hydrogen and feed the truck straight diesel
    Now... that pesky asterisk on #2... nothing in there about being able to fill the hydrogen and diesel tanks at the same time, or time lost traveling to or from a hydrogen fill station.

    but from my point of view, #1 and #3 cover so much ground that it already looks like a decent deal. If I had some suitable trucks, I'd sign up.
     
  10. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    #1 - the operative word mentioned in the article, "Long Haul". A lack of honesty .... the author &experimenters leaving out how much it would cost to build & maintain the trillion dollar infrastructure to supplement Diesel w/ hydrogen. Or maybe they don't know how much it costs to maintain 10,000 PSI compressors - all across 1,000's &1,000 of miles.
    #2 - as Bob mentions - cost to reform hydrogen. For example, electrolysis in a state like California that's lacking enough electricity for regular use means electricity shortages would be even greater.
    or .... you could use natural gas for steam reformation - in stead of using it to spin generators for electrolysis. But for those that find natural gas damnable nowadays (evil C02) what are you going to do.
     
  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Looks like you get your wish:
    upload_2023-4-29_11-29-28.png

    Source:

    As of April 2023, there were 60 publicly accessible hydrogen refueling stations in the US, 59 of which were located in California, with one in Hawaii.

    Hydrogen station - Wikipedia

    Bob Wilson
     
  12. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i've never read motor mouth before. i have to admit, i don't like his style.

    jessica verhagen seems to have a little elizabeth holmes in her
     
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Hydra Energy's FAQ, going to reference some things from there.
    https://www.hydraenergy.com/faq

    This is what they say about fuel efficiency, "With as high as 40% diesel displacement by energy, Hydra trucks can run up to 1,000 km per day burning 40 kilos of hydrogen on average, even with the heaviest payloads and in the heart of winter. That equates to 134 litres of diesel). As this is on top of the existing diesel tanks, Hydra’s kits extend a truck’s range."
    The reports were also about cleaning up the exhaust during that time. Natural gas and propane injection are used for the same purpose. Displacing some diesel burned could reduce carbon emissions some, but these numbers mean using renewable hydrogen, or at least hydrogen made with carbon sequestering(blue hydrogen). Without British Columbia's plentiful hydro power for Hydra Power's electrolyzers, the carbon reduction wouldn't be good
    It's 15 years for the Mirai tanks. It is a DoT rule covering high pressure fuel tanks. CNG tanks also have finite life span. The lower pressures and less aggressive gas means they can just go up to 25 years. In theory, the tanks could be tested and recertified, but it is likely cheaper to just replace with new.

    They are paying for the conversions. The fleet has to sign up to use their refueling equipment and hydrogen for 5 years. The hydrogen is supposedly priced around that of diesel.

    The equipment and installation on the truck is $55k, I assume Canadian. Not sure what happens to it if the fleet doesn't renew the contract..
    Refueling is under 10 minutes. With the station at the fleet base, it is done during precheck.

    The truck equipment and hydrogen adds 700kg. Alberta and BC let you overweight the truck by up to 1000kg for hydrogen equipment.
    Porsche is making their renewable hydrogen down in Chile for the plentiful, cheap wind power. They then convert that into gasoline on site, because that is far, far easier to ship than hydrogen.

    The issues facing the transportation and refueling of hydrogen has the research shifting turn converting it into ammonia or methanol, shipping that to the refueling station, and then stripping the hydrogen off there. Both of those chemicals are decent fuels on their own, and if you are going to make another fuel from the hydrogen for shipping, you might as well make a fuel that can work in existing vehicles, like Porsche is.

    Like fossil hydrogen, green hydrogen plants will be built where the product is needed, or the industry that needs it will move to it. It is unlikely Hyda Power's business plan can move far from Canada.
    It's more than two with the different compression pressures. Hydrogen stations in California have two different nozzles to support the new and old hydrogen cars on the roads. Japan is moving to an even higher pressure.
     
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  14. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Yay ! ! go higher pressure hydrogen!

    ;)

    FC3bnywUYAIEyn0.jpg
    .
     
  15. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    That will buff out.
    It looks like the can of cat food will be salvageable.
     
  16. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    That's actually a CNG A3. Which really isn't reassuring as CNG fills to 3600psi and current hydrogen tank's 10,000psi. It has also been rolling around in vehicles for decades.
     
  17. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    From Honeywell 1st quarter report:

    "Let's turn to Slide 4. In February, we announced that ExxonMobil will deploy Honeywell's carbon capture technology as its integrated complex in Baytown, Texas. The plant is expected to be the largest low-carbon hydrogen project in the world at planned start-up and projected to produce around one billion cubic feet of low-carbon hydrogen per day. Honeywell technology will enable the facility to capture more than 98% of the associated CO2 emission, which will be sequestered and permanently stored by ExxonMobil. In addition, Honeywell recently launched a European Clean Aviation project to develop a new generation of aerospace-qualified megawatt-class fuel cells powered by hydrogen. Green hydrogen is an extremely clean power source that can be used to propel future aircraft, which makes it particularly appealing to the aerospace sector as we work to reduce carbon emissions."

    Disclaimer: I own stock via an employee purchase from 30+ years ago. Significant to me, not to them.
     
  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The last line talks of green hydrogen, but the project with ExxonMobil is blue hydrogen. It is good old steam reformation of natural gas to make hydrogen with capture and sequestering of the CO2 added on. A good thing if you insist on getting hydrogen from fossil fuels. The hydrogen isn't going into cars though. At least not as fuel. It could end up in the plastics and tires.
    Hydrogen: Another chapter in ExxonMobil’s lower-emissions ambitions | ExxonMobil

    Hydrogen is a necessary industrial feed stock. We need green hydrogen for those uses. Burning it in cars or trucks just means fossil hydrogen will keep getting used in the traditional roles.
     
  19. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

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    I almost went for a CNG car, but the tanks were expired.

    Which brings up a problem with compressed gas tanks, you can only use them so many times (legally and perhaps safely) until they need to be replaced. This doesn't seem that much different than changing batteries on BEV's.
     
  20. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    HUGE difference.
    If the tanks fail, the car gets shredded (hopefully no one is in the back seat, or near the car).
    If the batteries go beyond their time, you get less range.

    Edit: Looking at the image again, people in the back seat may have been ok.
     
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