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MPG calculator reporting incorrectly? What is going on?

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Fuel Economy' started by jimmy0x52, Jul 24, 2012.

  1. jimmy0x52

    jimmy0x52 Junior Member

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    So at my previous fill up my wife "filled it up" and reset the info screen. When I got in I noticed it was only at 8 pips (she said it clicked when filling, but I digress). I went to the station and put another 2.5 gallons in to fill it all the way up and the gauge was full.

    Over the course of a week I noticed it dropped much faster than usual. Today it had 2 pip, so I went to fill up again. I put a total of 8.2 gallons into the tank and the odo read 277 miles. Doing the math, that's only about 33.7mpg. The info computer reported 39.5mpg.

    I am inclined to think that the computer report of the higher mileage is wrong (you cant really lie about how much fuel you put in, or what the actual odo says you travelled).

    The first tank I ever put in we got 411 miles on it and that was at the last pip blinking. When I put it in, it took over 100 miles for the first pip to even disappear. Now it seems like that pip is gone in 30-40 miles.

    So is there something to calibrate or check? I bought this one used with 36k miles on it so I'm not the first owner. Recently serviced it and the mechanic said it all checked out. I'm wondering if there's just an issue with how that MPG is calibrated or maybe the fuel bladder is a deceptive thing as to when it's "full"?

    I also checked my aux battery - showing 12.0-12.1 in diag, 11.7 in accessory and 13.7 when running.

    It has gotten a bit warmer in central texas over the past week or two (up in the high 90's vs high 80's). Otherwise, no real change in how we're driving the vehicle.

    Oh and to answer the survey:

    - Have you read This Thead Yet?
    yes

    - What fuel economy are you getting and how are you determining fuel economy? (trip computer or manual calculations)
    trip
    33.7mpg (manual calculations) or 39.5 (trip computer)

    - What fuel economy are you expecting and why?
    40-45mpg (got it before - like 1 week before) - this was using the trip computer though. My wife filled it up so she didn't record how much gas she put in, or what the mileage was.

    - What are the approximate outside air temps?
    95-99 F

    - How long are your trips?
    26mi round trip 5x/wk to work, but in the past week or two I've had a few 60-65mi round trips (so split each of those in half).

    - How much of it is city vs. highway? Roughly what's the average speed in overall and and of each segment? Is there a lot of stop and go driving?
    On the 13mi segments avg speed is 30-40mph. Mostly cruising with a few lights that last 5ish minutes. On the 30mi segments it's 90% highway.

    - What region/state are you in? (if you haven't set your location in your profile)
    Texas, Austin

    - What's the terrain like of your drives? (e.g. flat, gentle hills, steep hills, etc.)
    13mi segments some steep some gradual hills (we are in the hill country) - longer trips are pretty smooth

    - Is your oil overfilled? (i.e. above the full mark on the dipstick)
    this I need to check

    How old is your 12v battery? What is the voltage reading of your 12v battery after sitting over night? (Method Here)
    12.0-12.1 in diag, 11.7 in accessory and 13.7 when running.
    Have you had your alignment checked? Any pulling or abnormal tire wear?
    no, no

    - Are you using the factory tires and wheels? If not, please indicate tire make, model and size (e.g. Goodyear Assurance Fuel Max 185/65R15).
    Factory

    - What are your tire pressures?
    Also will check and update

    - Make, model, year, engine and transmission of previous car? (e.g. 08 Honda Civic Si 2.0L 4 cylinder, manual transmission) What did you actually get on the same trips/commute? (Please give us actual numbers, not EPA ratings.)
    2004 Toyota Camry SE, 3.3L V6

    - How are you trying to drive (e.g. trying to stay in electric only?) and how hard are you braking?
    Use cruise as much as possible, no hard accelerations, stay close (<5mph) from speed limit.

    - Are you "warming up" the ICE (internal combustion engine) by letting it idle after powering on?
    30 seconds?
    - Are you driving using D or B mode?
    D

    - HVAC settings? Are you using the heater, AC, auto mode, etc.? If using auto, what temp is it set to?
    A/C mode in Auto. I set it at about 75, my wife probably around 68-70. It's very hot and humid in TX

    - If reporting a mileage drop, did anything significant change on your car (e.g. accident, hit a curb or big pothole throwing off alignment, oil change/other maintenance/repairs, changed tires or wheels, etc.) or your commute?
    Nothing. Filled her up with gas. I got an oil change before I even put my first tank of gas in it, and I got the great milage (41mpg) when I did that.
     
  2. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    I'll answer your question, and then I'll answer your question.
    Disregard the MDF if you're interested in knowing what your mileage really is. It's going to be off by about 5-percent, and then you're only looking at what you're measuring with the display. Some folks go tank to tank. Some go trip to trip.
    Not all trips and tanks are the same.
    OK...so the first step is to make all tanks the same.
    You can actually do this mostly easily and fairly accurately. My methodology is for a G3 (10-) but your G2 ought to work out about the same. Fill your tank regularly with x.xxx gallons of fuel. Actually it would really probably be x.xx, despite the fact that modern fuel pumps are really pretty accurate, but close enough is close enough.
    For my G3 the math is pretty simple. 11.9 gallon tank. I drive until I reach DTE-50...meaning DTE=0 and then fifty more miles after that. I'm almost always able to pump 10.000 gallons of fuel into my car
    Makes for easy math, since like most people I have 10 digits to help me with the counting.
    The key is consistency.
    Then...you'll KNOW what you're getting tank to tank, and how goofy the MDF REALLY is.

    So that's the answer to the question that you ASKED.
    Here are some answers to the question you were asking about.

    You need to do a few things.
    1. Probably replace your Aux battery. The readings look a little suspicious. Did you remove the battery to test it? Did you test it under a load?
    2. Set your HVAC to 75. It's 95-99 here as well, and I guarantee you it's at least as humid. I set mine to 75, and at night I actually have to move it up to 78. If you (or your wife) have it on 68 then something needs looking into, and I hope it's the HVAC. If your dear wife is going through menopause, give her my sympathy and be patient with her WRT HVAC settings.
    If she otherwise "has" to have HVAC settings <69, then give her a gym membership.
    Please understand me....I don't care what you set it to, but you asked. Most of what an A/C does to make you comfy is actually dehumidification. On short trips, you're just going to have to live with a higher HVAC ding in your economy. Setting it on 60 doesn't cool the car faster than setting it on 70 (given a 95-99 degree ambient temp) it just runs longer.
    3. If you don't know what pressures your tires are inflated to, then you need to find out. If you see a Mk-1, Mod-0 "pencil" type gauge anywhere in your house, throw it away. Spend about $8 and get yourself a good dial type (round) gauge...and USE it. Digital ones are OK I guess...but dial gauges don't require batteries.
    Consider bringing your tire pressures up a little. If you're not checking your tire pressures every tank, then you deserve to get bad mileages b/c getting good mileages just isn't the top turd on your pile right now.
    4. Oil...Tires...Same thing. If you don't know if your oil is overfilled---then you're not checking your oil. What KIND of oil are you using? If you had it changed....where did you do this? If you took it to an independent oil replaceorium, what did you tell them to use??? What did they really use?
    Your tires are four years old if they're "factory"...and you bought the car used---so they may not be OEM tires.You need to know what brand and size they are.
    5. Cargo. What's in your car? The G3 only has a cargo capacity of about 800#...pax included. Are you hauling a ton of extra crap with you? Do you carry a couple of Mastiffs in the cargo bay?
    6. Your car is used. Do you know it's pedigree? Has it ever been wrecked? How sure of a "No" answer are you really??? It's a lot like love and marriage. You're married to it now, so it doesn't matter but erratic behavior now may be indicative of an undisclosed and very wild upbringing.

    Some of this may sound a little pointed, and I'm not trying to be snarky. If you want to be efficient at something you have to work at it a little. Just buying a Pruis? It will get you 'good' but not really REALLY good. I know folks who drive well maintained, single owner babied G3's that get around 40mpg. They drive how they drive, and 40 is good enough.
    I also know people who get closer to 60.
    Some things you can't control. Pedigree, weather, geography, etc... This is why, if you're into the hypermiling life, or if you want to be green ($) or green like Kermit you have to CONTROL the things you can.
    It's really not that hard, and believe ME you don't have to be that anal.
    It's simply a matter of checking your tire pressures and your oil about every tank or even every other tank. Know your maintenance schedule and find out the status of all of your filters and fluids....for instance....how often do you replace the air filter? When was it last done?
    Just a little extra (and consistent!) effort here will pay off and then you'll quickly vault to the upper five percentile in automotive preventative maintenance! ;)

    Get cracking and report back...-or- just put the giveacrap switch in the "don't" position and get on with your life.
    Your call.
    I know people who would be dancing in the streets if they got 35mpg!! ;)
     
  3. jimmy0x52

    jimmy0x52 Junior Member

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    You're failing at "not trying to be snarky" - might want to reread what you post before you post it, but I digress.

    You have some good info in there. I have no preconceptions that buying the vehicle is all I need to do (why do you think I'm asking the questions?). I'll try and address your questions one-by-one.

    I don't know for sure it wasn't wrecked, but I did my due diligence when I bought it by getting an AutoCheck and having it checked out. I know as much as I can about it to make an educated guess that it was not wrecked.

    I know it has the factory tires (at least the factory size, brand and model - again, not the first owner so they may have been replaced but they look like tires that have 37k miles on them). They are the same thing that it rolled off the line with, even if they aren't the tires themselves. I'm going to up the pressure to 42/40 when I get home based on other things I read.

    I use a trusted mechanic who does good work, and not a Jiffy Lube. I can double-check they didn't over-fill it but I trust the materials they use are what they say they are.

    No cargo. Occasionally a wife and a couple young children, but typically just me. I'm weighing in at 230 these days, so I'm well within normal ranges of cargo.

    On the battery - I'm also reading that it is working as prescribed. It's a tad low, but not bad. I did the Display/3xLights to check it out for the first reading, put it into accessory for the second, and turned it on for the third.
     
  4. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    OP, zero the tank MPG meter and go for a 20 mile round trip drive on the highway at 60 mph WITHOUT AC in the cool(er) evening. Fuel economy below 50 mpg suggests the car has a problem.
     
  5. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, and I did read my post before I hit the send button. Twice.
    I don't like (unintentional) grammatical errors and a forum is a poor place to convey information since there is no sarcasm font.
    There were a lotta "I do not know's" in your first posts, and that led me to poke you in a sensitive place to get you motivated to find out. Your reported mileages are well below the norm for a G2, which even if driven rather spiritedly should give results closer to 43 than 33.
    This means something is wrong.
    Whether it's a dead short between the seat and the steering wheel, or there's a mechanical problem with the car is something I'd be finding out---ESPECIALLY if you haul young children around.

    We've established that you have OEM tires of some pressure, probably safe. I don't recall if G2's have TPMS (This system was mandated for passenger cars by my beloved government to thwart the beneficial effects of natural selection) but I think that they do.
    You said that you had a "trusted" mechanic change your oil. What viscosity? My company has "trusted" mechanics that changed 2 Priuses in our fleet using the "right" oil as set forth in our company's repair and maintenance procedures one time.
    They used 20w50.
    OK...so. Lets stipulate that your wrench is da bomb!!
    What viscosity oil did he/she use?
    Did they/you/somebody look at the air filter?
    If your tires have 37k on them and you don't have funny wear patterns, then you're probably OK WRT alignment, but if you continue to get MPG's in the 30's I'd look into this as well after I checked everything else first.
    Look at the underside of the car.
    See all those plastic panels?
    Are they all there?
    Do you see any signs of a ramp strike, curb collision, or something else?
    The previous owner could have had a low order collision with a curb that has not yet begun to manifest itself in improper tire wear.
    Does your car track normally when you let go of the wheel at speed?


    Like I said.
    Something is up.
    If you're getting 33 under the conditions that you reported in the survey, that something is either mechanical, or human. Hell....it could be that the pump at your local station is off kilter. Do you buy your gas at the same place all the time?

    Good Luck!
     
  6. jimmy0x52

    jimmy0x52 Junior Member

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    So I checked the receipt for my oil change - looks like they put 5W20 in there. I'll be sure to tell them 5W30 for the next change - since it clearly says that on the oil fill cap - I also believe it was full synth.

    I checked the tires, 32 all around. i pushed them up to 42/40. since I think the actual manual calls for in the 35's and I've read 42/40 can give much better performance MPG-wise.

    The car is straight as an arrow. If I let go of the wheel, it goes straight down the road with no pull. Surprisingly no pull at all.

    I think the final culprit is the battery. I checked it again, and it's reading mid-11's about 20 minutes after I got back from a ~30 mile drive. I think we have a failing battery (which is VERY common in Austin. I replace batteries in cars every couple of years).
     
  7. Son of Gloin

    Son of Gloin Active Member

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    Going from "32 all around" to "42/40" should make for quite a positive change in the mpg range you've been experiencing; ESPECIALLY if it turns out there's nothing mechanically / electrically "wrong" with your vehicle. I'd suggest checking the pressure about once-per-week for a month or so to "check" for slow leaks, and at least once per month thereafter.

    For what it's worth, I've been running 42/40 for about two-and-a-half years ( we bought our '08 new nearly 4 years ago ) and very rarely have full tank mpg figures ( I usually fill up after 325 miles or so; with 2 or 3 "pips" remaining ) go below 50 during the warm / hot driving months; about 47.5 has been the lowest, and somewhat above 55 is not terribly uncommon. As always ... YMMV ... snicker ...

    EDIT / an afterthought: I sometimes have what I refer to as "fluke" mpg results for a single fill-up ... that's when the readout mpg varies +/- 10% from the calculated mpg. ALMOST ALWAYS, by the time I fill up the NEXT time, the TWO fill-ups ( combined ) end up 2-5 mpg ABOVE the car's current, lifetime mpg.
     
  8. jimmy0x52

    jimmy0x52 Junior Member

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    Well new battery is on its way. With the tires pumped up I had an appreciable difference today in gas milage just in my short 26 mile round trip from work.

    Thanks for the advice - I'll let you all know how it goes when I replace the battery too.
     
  9. jimmy0x52

    jimmy0x52 Junior Member

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    Just with tires I'm pulling out about 47mpg now instead of a consistent 37-40. I'll see what it nets out to at the next fillup.
     
    Son of Gloin likes this.
  10. Son of Gloin

    Son of Gloin Active Member

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    Referring to your most recent update: 47 mpg vs. 37-40 ... that's REALLY encouraging! Rarely is only ONE "thing" the culprit, but we can always hope!
     
  11. jimmy0x52

    jimmy0x52 Junior Member

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    New optima yellowtop direct swap just got here too. Apparently Optima is based out of Laredo, TX because I had no idea it would get here next day!

    And the yellowtop is in. Looking forward to seeing how good I get in tomorrow's commute. once the wife gets home i might take it for a spin.
     
  12. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Good one Jimmy...I saw a good improvement back to normal MPG after Optima install but not for the first tank or two. Give it a chance to reset the settings and all.
     
  13. jimmy0x52

    jimmy0x52 Junior Member

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    Hit 52 on the way to work today. Averaging out closer to 45 overall.

    Interesting side note - today was the first day when I'd ever seen my battery in the MFD ENTIRELY full. Like, all 8 bars, in green, filled up. Since I've had it i've been able to get to 7, but never 8. I wonder if this is an undocumented warning mechanism that your 12V is going bad - your MFD battery will never get to full.
     
  14. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Hey another good one Jimmy ...that's what I saw too! Green green green. Now in the summer we are in the blue but we had a good 6 months in the green during the winter.
     
  15. uart

    uart Senior Member

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    As strange as it may sound, you really don't want to see all 8 bars of (traction) battery charge too often Jimmy. The "nominal" battery level that the Prius prefers to maintain is only 6 bars. This is because it needs to keep some capacity in reserve for regeneration. Actually seeing 8 bars too often can be a sign of something bad rather than a good thing. If however you saw it after regenerating down a reasonably long or steep hill then it is perfectly normal.

    Given your 12V battery measurements I personally doubt whether the battery swap played any role in your mpg improvements. It was definitely getting a little weak so it was probably still worth replacing, but I think your improvements are just down to the tires and getting used to some of the quirks of driving a Prius. Also, given the inconsistencies of the Prius tank bladder, I'd give virtually no credence at all to the one slightly lower than expected MPG calculation based on a single 8.5 gal fill.
     
  16. NinnJinn

    NinnJinn Member

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    It has been 2 1/2 weeks since last update. All still going well? Tank MPG still in the high 40's?
     
  17. jimmy0x52

    jimmy0x52 Junior Member

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    Here's the update:

    Mileage log
    Miles / Gallons / date
    ? / ? / 07072012 = ~41.xxx (my wife filled this one)
    277 / 8.2 / 07232012 = 33.78 This is when I created this post
    246 / 6.132 / 07302012 = 40.11 This is after I replaced my 12V battery
    220 / 6.16 / 08042012 = 35.71
    288 / 7.342 / 08092012 = 39.22
    258 / 6.566 / 08122012 = 39.29

    Honestly - I'm doing better but still not in the 40's. This is a good mix of highway (65-75mph) and street (20-50mph) driving. I've been filling it up when it gets to 3/10 bars on the gas gauge. Sometimes on a fillup, the first bar takes almost 120 miles to disappear, and sometimes I'm down to 8/10 within 100 miles.

    I noticed it takes VERY little gas pedal pressure in my Prius to kick on the gas engine - really at any speed. It seems like my electric motor has very little ability to help the car accelerate and moreso just to maintain a current speed - and only if on level or downhill grades. I know this is all variable depending on how warm the engine is, what speed you're going, if there's a hill, etc etc - but I feel like the electric motor gives very little assistance sometimes.

    Another thing I noticed that may or may not be a concern - often when I am done driving I have a full (7/8) or relatively full (5/8) battery when I park it at work. I'll get in the car at the end of the day, turn it on, see a full battery, and within 2 minutes I'm down to 2/8 bars. Almost like it drained throughout the day and wasn't properly reporting it when I started it, and then caught up. I'm thinking this is abnormal behavior, but I really don't know.

    I'm open to suggestions.
     
  18. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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  19. goitalone

    goitalone Member

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    Same crap that happens to my Prius. I park it with full bars, next day I get in and it has already drained some and then quickly drains to 2 red bars. I have no idea what causes this as my Preferred Hybrid Mech. said evertything was fine. :(

    My ICE runs now even when costing/going really slow with no acceleration etc. when it shouldn't and didn't used to do so.

    I put 44/42 in tires and get below 40 (32-38 MPG) per tank when I used to get 46-50 all the time.

    Something is WRONG!
     
  20. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Maybe I'm reading the above wrong, but:

    The motor assists when the engine is running as well. Electric-only propulsion tends to be under very light load conditions at around town speeds, by design. It will do a little better say in a parking lot at near walking pace, ie: allow gentle acceleration or hang in through a bit of upgrade.

    And feathering the gas purposely to extend electric only propulsion should be done prudently: once the battery charge starts falling significantly you might want to jab the pedal, to purposely start the engine.