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Featured Munro on bZ4X

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by bwilson4web, Mar 15, 2023.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Actually Tesla designs and builds their cars to replace existing ICE vehicles. So far, I find that to be true.

    One interesting thought, the Tesla semi-truck is designed to address the single largest vehicles that are unsustainable. The fuel and emissions of traditional diesel, class 8 (the largest) runs in the 7-9 MPG range. In contrast, the Tesla truck is about 1/3d the cost and runs on whatever makes electricity: Alabama Profile

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    Bob Wilson
     

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    #21 bwilson4web, Mar 23, 2023
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  2. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Seems the bZ4X ended up like the earlier Lexus BEV (UX?). In and of itself, it isn't a bad car, except for the price. Competitors in the same price range offer longer range, faster charging, and better performance. Some may even have better efficiency.
     
  3. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Has Toyota sought to create ev transportation deemed "not a bad car?
    This is exactly what makes no sense. Isn't the goal of something newly manufactured supposed to replace & make better the prior thing? If not better - at least beat what's already better w/ a deep price advantage?
    Post #7 tries to rationalize in essence, this vehicle is for a "targeted audience".
    What? How much audience can there be for something that's no better than what the market already offers. The BZ comparison to gen 1 Prius does NO justice to the Gen 1 Prius because it at least offered high mileage.
    And who tries to rationalize cloth upholstery as innovative because it helps diminish Heat. Sure .... Great, that makes body oils' absorption into fabric well worth it? Hasn't Toyota at least matched the use of AC cooled ventilated leather as the competition has done for, what, over a decade?? I still wish Toyota success - but it'll be dumbfounding if this ev iteration isn't .... unsuccessful. That's painful to contemplate.
    .
     
    #23 hill, Mar 23, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2023
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  4. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    How is it going to be sustainable to mine and process all that lithium, cobalt, manganese, and nickel for giant 18-wheeler batteries?

    BEV trucks are a good idea in ports etc., where air quality is a major concern, but I am not sure if they are for long-distance hauling.
     
  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The gen1 Prius comparison doesn't hold up because it was at a brand new thing to the market. The 4X situation is more gen4 Prime. There were several competitors out to benchmark, and Toyota themselves already produced an earlier model, but the elected to stick with with internal reasoning that seemed more focused on one market. In this case, China instead of Japan. The Prime was saved by low MSRP and incentives.

    The warranty is good marketing, but it actually isn't any better than what Tesla has. I'm sure others are similar. The long warranty in other markets requires annual inspections at a dealer. That leaves Toyota loyalist as the sole advantage of the car over other EVs. But doesn't Toyota have an issue with attracting younger and newer buyers? Didn't even try an entire new brand to address that? Couldn't a whole new segment have a place to try addressing that?

    The cloth dash board. What, no IR filtering glass and IR reflecting paint? Better to combat heat by keeping it out of the car. If the cloth is a great solution, why isn't it in the Prius? Besides, the range issue EVs face with climate is when it is cold out.
    How is the mining and processing of oil for fuel, or the materials needed for the additional renewable electricity generation to support hydrogen production more sustainable than batteries?
     
    #25 Trollbait, Mar 23, 2023
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  6. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    So, cloth for dash and faux leather for seats is considered luxurious, but faux leather for dash and cloth for seats are considered a downgrade?

    By the way, unlike for me, who keeps his car like new, for most people, faux leather for seats seems to be a bad option as it wears out so quickly—like in a year or two or less.

    That is the point. Currently, the batteries are not recycled, and until then, both the batteries and fossil fuels are bad for the Earth.
     
    #26 Gokhan, Mar 23, 2023
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  7. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    like the prime batteries?
     
  8. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    All batteries, including the Prius HEV batteries. The battery in the Prius PHEV is pretty small though.
     
  9. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    oof course, it's balanced by a polluting ice
     
  10. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    The best way not to pollute is to walk, not drive. ;)
     
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  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The criticism leveled against leveled against the cloth dash is over the potential effort to keep it clean. Not about the perceived luxuriousness. There are other dash materials that can denote luxury while being easy to clean.

    A post claims Toyota chose it for reducing cabin heat build up.

    What mass recycling programs are currently in place for hydrogen fuel cells and tanks?

    There are start up operations that do recycle EV batteries. Large scale recycling won't start until there are enough old EV batteries available to support gathering them up. It will happen. The metals are simply too valuable to let got to a landfill.
     
  12. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Fuel cells are similar to batteries in construction; so, you have the same problem with them.

    It is very difficult to recycle batteries, and it will remain very difficult, especially given that there are so many different architectures and materials.

    After all these years, do you think plastic is recycled?

    Again, the best way to be green is to reduce car dependence by building more sustainable cities that don't require a car.
     
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I don't have a problem with recycling batteries. We didn't start recycling lead-acid in the US until the 1990's, and now we are at a 90% recycling rate. The EV sector is already working on the recycling issue instead of waiting until the packs are clogging land fills.

    Plastics aren't like metals or glass. The recycling process can lead to chemical changes to the material, and is why most of the plastic recycled end up in a different class of product. Might be better to sequester it in a landfill if we aren't converting it but into a hydrocarbon base. Also doesn't help the plastic recycling biz that virgin material is so cheap. That is now hurting textile recycling. End of life fabrics; cotton, wool, etc. would likely end up in emergency blankets that get passed out after disasters. New plastic fiber ones are now cheaper.
     
  14. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    It'd be nice of the charge port door was remote released (like an ICE car) or powered (not necessary). The manual push to release means the clearcoat will eventually wear out. It would be nice of the door was unpainted or had some small unpainted portion to push to open if Toyota wanted to stick with a manual push-to-open door. Of course a remote release is preferred (esp since it's so close to the dashboard - how much wire can it cost?)

    I assume they mean the powertrain cause Toyota reduced a lot of cost in the exterior paint department :LOL:
     
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  15. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    pip has that emblem on the charge door to protect it. mine is like brand ne after 11 years, i don't understand why toyota goes backwards so often
     
  16. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    I'm not sure that's an issue. My SIL's old Tundra fuel door was used quite a bit. :D It never wore out. My Prime's charge door was used quite a bit during the week with no discerning issues. But I do agree that it might be better with a remote release to prevent vandalism. The charge port door already has wires run to it, because it will tell you if you left the charge port door ajar or open and the money they saved from not having a fuel door release (or gas caps) like on the Prime, they could put into the bZ4X's charge door. ;)
     
  17. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Hmm, my Prime's charge door was already showing wear at 3 years old. The area where you would push to open the door was cloudy if you looked at it at the right angle.
     
  18. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    Huh, I'll be darn. What color was your Prime (doesn't say in your signature)? Mine was Magnetic Gray Metallic.
     
  19. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Hypersonic Red.
     
  20. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Tesla's goal is to build the best cars, trucks, and SUVs - not the best electric. They try new things unlike traditional auto companies. Sometimes this works well and others adapt those things. Sometimes they don't. Either way it is good that a small number of auto companies can't keep ideas locked away.

    The semi is off topic. eCasscadia (Freightliner) was the first to prove the concept for short haul trucks. The tesla Semi has many advantages and just started logging miles in what I would call an alpha for pepsi co. Trucking volume continues to shift to short haul (less than 150 miles one way). In a short haul normal semis are 4-7 mpg. Long haul (greater than 250 miles) will likely move to phev semi trucks eventually once all the things have been worked out in short and medium haul bev trucks.

    The high price of cobalt has marked a shift to much lower cobalt content in batteries, so much so that cobalt prices seem to have fallen back to where they were over a decade ago. There is plenty of cobalt for the small amount to be used in semi batteries. Long range SUV batteries will likely use a little more of it, but again it is not a problem. The invisible hand has taken care of substitution when demand caused prices to rise and the human rights abuses of mining cobalt were highlighted. Nickel is a little more problematic. Much Nickel mining is done in countries that have poor environmental and human rights records. There is plenty of nickel but to ethically and envirmentally mine enough for current other needs and batteries may raise the price enough to require a lower percentage. There just isn't much manganese in these batteries, compared to the needs in fact both Tesla and VW are looking at increasing it to reduce the amount of nickel and using iron phosphate for their less expensive and higher volume vehicles. Lithium, Iron, and phosphate are plentiful. Lithium production will need to be expanded but if it gets expensive recycling will happen.

    Why aren't many lithium batteries recycled? There just aren't that many of them and chemistries like lithium iron phosphate are non toxic unlike nickel metal hydride or lead acid. I've been hearing their isn't enough lithium for years, but magically more production is being created and has been. The amount in the ground is huge.
     
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