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My Concerns with the New Prius

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Prius Main Forum' started by Tideland Prius, Nov 21, 2022.

  1. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    So how does the 2L LE manage an EPA rating close to the gen4 Eco?

    It is 220 pounds heavier. The frontal area is still large enough that the CdA is worse. While the 2.0L is more thermally efficient, models equipped with both it and the 1.8L have better ratings with the smaller displacement.

    Being a box doesn't means it can't be aerodynamic too. The Cd of 0.29 isn't great, but it isn't much worse than the new Prius 0.27, and Hyundai does have a decent hybrid system in it.

    https://www.kiamedia.com/us/en/models/niro/2023/specifications
    The Cd is listed under interior dimensionso_O
    Here's how the 2023 Kia Niro's Aero Blade works | Autoblog - Autoblog
    There is a 2023 Niro FE listing of 53/54/53 city/hwy/comb. which would match the LX and EX in the specification link, and the EX Touring getting the worse highway rating. My guess is weight and non-aero wheels on the Touring.

    The Ioniq hybrid was close to the Prius body, and was rated about the same on the EPA.

    The most thermally efficient car engine is in a race car, which doesn't have to be reliable for thousands of miles, nor be affordable. The 1.8L is 40% efficient. The 2L is 41% to 42%. Toyota's best engine for a car is a diesel at 44%. Improving thermal efficiency in a car engine, that is small with wide operating parameters, is a hard problem. Much easier to reach 60% with a 100ton turbine in a power plant.
    But is it honest to under report on the window sticker, and it took me a bit of effort to reach the 60mpg city on my 2005 Prius window sticker;)

    The user reported mpg for the Ioniq and Prius of the same year are very close over at Fuelly. Hyundai had trouble with EPA figures in the past, but the reports were that it truly a mistake vs. manipulating rules and loopholes in the system.
     
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  2. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    Your right the rav hybrid is worse mpg than a Prius but is basically equivalent to a Prius v while providing a higher seating position, awd, towing, better acceleration and advanced safety features standard. Powered by a lithium battery and an advanced 2.5L engine with dual injection.

    3A87D0BA-9B01-4D31-81EF-7A990D4B0E55.jpeg
     
    #342 rjparker, Jan 4, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2023
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  3. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Same here, until RJ pointed it out.
    I misunderstood, thought you were comparing hybrid to non-hybrid highway, not hybrid highway vs city.

    For Gen2/3/4 Prii, the EPA highway-city differences are typically 3 to 4 mpg, 6 to 8%, so the same on the RAV4 Hybrid doesn't seem surprising. I haven't been following the Gen5 Prii much yet, and EPA isn't yet posting its ratings, so don't have anything to contribute on that angle.

    Having not caught up to Gen5 details, I still behind on why the other Gen5 trims aren't higher compared to Gen4.
     
    #343 fuzzy1, Jan 4, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2023
  4. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Beating EPA should be easy, if one tries. I've done it in all mine from 1986 on, though on one I had to read Wayne Gerdes before doing it consistently.

    Matching CAFE is much more of a challenge.
     
  5. Hammersmith

    Hammersmith Senior Member

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    Re: Nero mpg numbers

    The Nero has two sets of mpg numbers depending on the trim level. In a fun little corollary with the gen5, the factor that determines the difference between the mpg ratings is the wheel size.

    Nero LX/EX/SX (16" wheels, 205 width tires) - 53/54/53(C/H/Comb)

    Nero EX Touring/SX Touring (18" wheels, 225 width tires) - 53/45/49

    The larger wheel and wider tires apparently don't hurt slow speed driving, but they have a major effect(-9mpg) on high speed.
     
  6. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

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    And last I checked, worse leg room than in a Camry, which is more important to me for comfort than having air above my head.

    To me the extra height is a waste. Give me a station wagon, That would make more aerodynamic sense. Plus if you want to get up on the roof (to remove snow or put on a luggage carrier) it's much easier the lower the car is.

    AWD is nice but not necessary. Same with better acceleration. IMO of course. Anyone else can have a different opinion. Wait a second!

    The towing and spare tire are what I like about the RAV4. Also the extra luggage room can be handy. Then again the Camry also has a spare tire, and just like my Avalon it is possible to add a tow hitch to a Camry even though it's not rated for it. Seeing how a RAV4 isn't hardly any heavier than a Camry I don't see why modest towing (1,000lbs or less) would be a problem.
     
  7. farmecologist

    farmecologist Senior Member

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    After pricing things out, I think it will be a dilemma for many to choose between the new Prius and the hybrid Camry. Personally I love the 2023 Prius...but the initial lust is starting to wear off a bit after the price shock. (y) The hybrid Camry would be the more 'sensible' choice. I'm also partial to sedans as our 2012 Sonata Limited has been an absolutely stellar car so far...and is by far the most comfortable on the highway. I'm assuming the characteristics of the Camry are similar to the Sonata...

    But then again, I also love the Prius C....we just might end up with another one of those ( daughter has the current one down in NC now ).
     
  8. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

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    Although not a Toyota and sadly hasn't had a great reputation for reliability, but I would definitely consider a Chevy Bolt. It's small like a Prius C, gets stellar "fuel mileage" and would be probably the cheapest car to own. I do believe the problems with previous Bolts have also all been worked out.
     
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  9. farmecologist

    farmecologist Senior Member

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    Yep...if I were interested in an EV...I'm not at this point. Good point though!
     
  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Rav4 hybrid is back to lithium? I know there was a brief period of one year where it had it, but most used NiMH in the US.

    I haven't been fanatical on following the gen5. Haven't seen a what's new list of the improvements over the out going model(like cooled EGR) to explain where the efficiency improvements have been added.

    While the 2L is a more advanced and improved engine over the 1.8L, the implementation in a car isn't as drastic has the 1.8L over the 1.5L in the gen2 to gen3. That is for efficiency; the power improvements are big. So maybe it is all down to the engine. We do know the 1.8L is better rated in economy for the EU over the 2L. Which raises the question of what is different between the Corolla hybrid and Prius that the 2L Prius does better than the 1.8L Corolla.

    The higher trims get the 19in wheels. In addition to the changes from that size increase alone, the 17in ones on the LE appear to have aero covers.

    I'm guessing the larger wheels aren't as aerodynamic in the spoke region. Wider will have a negative impact. The same city rating implies the tire and wheel combo weights are close.
     
  11. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    Real world the Camry seating position and legroom is worse than a Prius v. The Rav4 hybrid excels in these aspects including entry and exit to the cabin. The Camry has terrible access for a 6' 3" guy like me. Clearly the new Prius excels in mpg but access has already been flagged as an issue.

    The two under $30k Rav4 hybrids do not come the lithium. Toyota has four non-prime Ravs with lithium and two more Rav4 Primes with the big 355v lithium pack. Rav4 Prime is one of the hardest vehicles to get from Toyota. I would have loved to get one of those jewels. My dealer had one allocated since they were introduced. California dealers have had more but the msrp markup has been ridiculous. Much easier to buy a Tesla around here. I will be going full ev when Toyota is competitive in the ev arena.

    3D6763A2-6848-48EF-8F51-CC42ACF66609.jpeg
     
  12. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

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    All I know is that the last RAV4 I've been in (the rear) I couldn't feel my calves and had pain in my knees, and the driver in front of me was much shorter than I am. But I can put my front seat in a confortable possition in the Avalon with plenty of leg room and get in the back and still have plenty of leg room back there. Of course the Avalon is bigger than the Camry, so unfair comparison. I'm 6'1". I certainly hope I can keep this Avalon for as long as I live. It's a great car to take the family across the country in.

    Of course it all comes down to preferences. I can't stand to have my knees bent. The straighter my legs the better. I also can't stand to sit straight up, which means I have to support my whole back myself. Leaning back is more confortable.

    I know a lot of people like the dinning room chair feel in their vehicle. But to each their own.
     
    #352 Isaac Zachary, Jan 5, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2023
  13. farmecologist

    farmecologist Senior Member

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    The Prius V wagon definitely has a cavernous interior....it is a large station wagon after all. Much more interior room than many 'crossovers'. And the rear seats slide...much like a minivan. In fact, we purchased the Prius V wagon to replace our 2004 Mazda MPV...and it has done a great job. When I remove the rear seats there is a humongous amount of storage space in there. It worked great to move the kid to college, and other such activities. (y)
     
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  14. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

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    We almost got a Prius V instead of the Avalon when we were looking for our first newish vehicle. I kind of wished we had got one. But I do love having more than just one B mode in our mountainous terrain. The Prius V also would need a good storage net to make hauling around luggage safe, but the ones we saw didn't have any. My neighbor's sister died in a 25mph single car accident for having an open cargo compartment vehicle and ski equipment came flying up and killed her.
     
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  15. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    how do they use them for taxi's? they must add some kind of luggage retainer
     
  16. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    With the rear seat up a Prius v taxi's luggage is not going anywhere. In Europe you want the Prius v taxi over a Mercedes or Audi. It still has working ac and is not belching diesel fumes.
     
  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Probably something like those 'fences' you get for dogs.
     
  18. farmecologist

    farmecologist Senior Member

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    Yeah..I didn't quite get @Isaac Zachary 's previous comment either. You are correct...with the rear seats up, the luggage area is secure...just like any other hatchback/wagon has ever been. And with the seats down...cargo is as secure as you make it...just like any other hatchback/wagon has ever been. (y) I think he may have been referring to the fact that I have been known to remove the rear seats to make a the v's huge cargo area even larger. I've only done this a few times though ( i.e. - to move the kid to college, etc... ).
     
  19. daisy555

    daisy555 Senior Member

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    How horrible! Good reminder to secure cargo even inside a vehicle. I had a ladder fly into the front of my Pontiac Vibe. Lodged into the grill. Looked and sounded like some crazy super hero stunt. A couple of feet higher and it could have been horrific. I still have trouble driving behind trucks or vans with ladders or cargo piled up.
     
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  20. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The passenger cabin and cargo area are connected space. Rear seats up will reduce open area between them(less so if you remove the big headrests), but not close them off from each other. The odds can be small, yet they are still there that any loose object in the back can become a projectile within the cabin space during a crash.

    Every hatchback with a spare I owned included tie down straps for transporting the flat tire for this very reason. If it were a zero percent risk loose, the manufacturer would have saved the dollar, and not include them.