My Daughter Wants to Buy an SUV

Having been there I would say this.

Ask her if she would be willing to listen to your reasons why it may be a poor idea. If she agrees then show her data supporting your ideas and explain the human connection to all this (air pollution causing sick children and adults, tax money being spent on medical bills, national security etc.). Maybe watching the movie Affluenza together might be a good idea too.

Then tell her you will support her in any decision she makes and that you love her.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ May 9 2007, 06:31 PM) [snapback]438640[/snapback]</div>

You're right, and I was a bit snarky in my response.

I don't have children, and I'm sure it shows.
[sigh]

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ May 9 2007, 05:07 PM) [snapback]438538[/snapback]</div>

Man...that is one HIGH horse...

To say that she must be living outside her means and not understand the value of money because she wants an SUV just because she wants one is an unbelievable leap.

If she can afford it, she has the right to buy it. Thats capitalism and it ain't goin nowhere.

 

Be sure to let her know you won't be able to loan her any money for gas, tires, repairs, insurance or any other expenses the result of her decision.

And when she rolls it you won't lend her your Prius. She'll have to rent something.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ May 9 2007, 04:46 PM) [snapback]438649[/snapback]</div>

I wasn't picking on you dear. Those were just my thoughts on the subject.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ May 9 2007, 06:51 PM) [snapback]438655[/snapback]</div>

I know, and thanks...I re-read what I'd written and it made me realize that my perspective isn't terribly good in this case.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ May 9 2007, 06:50 PM) [snapback]438653[/snapback]</div>

Ummm, coupla things.

(1) It's not one's right to buy anything, even if one can afford it.

(2) I'm not saying that she's living outside her means. I'm saying that if one chooses to pay more for the same service (getting from point A to point B with reasonable safety and reliability, as provided by her current automobile)...for the self-stated reason of **impressing other people** (in this case, with the type and cost of their vehicle)...I'd humbly suggest that some of the decision making processes she's relying on to guide her to financial stability may not be giving her completely accurate information.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ May 9 2007, 08:30 PM) [snapback]438674[/snapback]</div>

You may like to believe that, but its just not true in this country. Its leftist idealist nonsense. We live in a free society and a free economy, if someone wants something that is legal, and they have the legal tender required to purchase it, it is their right to do so. You may say "Oh but mother green earth blah blah blah", thats not how the world works.

No, she just simply has different priorities in life than you. Some people shop at Wal Mart, some people shop at Nordstrom. Some people fly first class, some people fly coach. I know fabulously wealthy people who shop at Wal Mart and fly coach. I know pathetically poor people who mortgage the south forty to shop at Nordstrom. I personally have always tried to find a middle ground. I make smart financial decisions, but I enjoy nice things and nice experiences too.

My life is my life, your life is your life, and her life is her life. You have no more right to critique her buying decisions as I have to critique yours simply because our goals aren't the same. You're just as guilty of trying to project an image as she is, you're just projecting a different one and trying to impress different people.

We'd all be a lot better off if we'd stop judging people who'se names we don't even know.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ May 9 2007, 10:09 PM) [snapback]438855[/snapback]</div>

I would argue that when someone elses choice effects my health then "rights" can get quite mixed up. It is a persons right to smoke yet if they blow that smoke in my face it is then my right to punch them so hard it flies out their arse.

Would you like to argue land rights? Or how about indebting future generations?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ May 10 2007, 01:14 AM) [snapback]438858[/snapback]</div>

I think someone driving an SUV is hardly the same as someone blowing smoke in your face. As far as land rights? What is there to argue about when it comes to land rights?

Look, you cannot be the moral authority that decides who'se right it is to do what. Your way is not the only way to live. Sorry to say, but not everybody is cut out to live a selfless life of pining for the earth. Some of us want things, and some of those things aren't teriffic for the earth. But, its our right to live the way we want to live. Those of us who are responsible try and give back in other ways to compensate for what we take through donations and purchasing clean energy when possible, but some people just don't care. Unfortunately in a free society, its their right not to care.

She's 26 and she wants an SUV, its not like she wants to slash and burn a forest or something.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MegansPrius @ May 9 2007, 09:10 AM) [snapback]438286[/snapback]</div>

This part says it all: "But this desire for safety wasn't a rational calculation. It was a feeling. "

How many times have I heard, "You can't break the laws of physics." Of course there is NO law of physics that says a car is safer if it is heavier... but hey.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ May 9 2007, 12:38 PM) [snapback]438462[/snapback]</div>

Yet it is my air, my water, my security and my taxes.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ May 10 2007, 01:35 AM) [snapback]438872[/snapback]</div>

Thats the price you pay for living in a free society, you have to tolerate people who have different priorities in life than you and put up with the fact that their decisions effect your life. I think the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.

There are plenty of countries you can apply for citizenship in where they restrict the freedoms of their citizens to make life decisions for themselves for the "greater good". China comes to mind. Japan.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ May 9 2007, 10:09 PM) [snapback]438855[/snapback]</div>

It would be wise to read about the tragedy of the commons. It is currently legal for somebody else to use up what belongs to all of us. You're OK with that? If you are, then we most certainly see things differently. If our decisions are based solely on what we can afford, we're in sad shape.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ May 9 2007, 10:37 PM) [snapback]438874[/snapback]</div>

Ah. So better to leave than to try to improve my own country? Or is this the point where I'm called a "Commie" for wanting to protect the commons (one of the main reasons we have a governent in this country).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ May 10 2007, 01:39 AM) [snapback]438875[/snapback]</div>

Whats the alternative? Severely curtailing the freedoms we enjoy as a people. If thats the alternative then yes, I'm OK with that. If you want laws changed, work to change them.

Being a realist, I say the best course of action is to work to make things people enjoy more environmentally friendly because people are always going to want to enjoy them.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ May 10 2007, 01:45 AM) [snapback]438875[/snapback]</div>

When have I ever called you or anyone else a "commie"? Don't put words in my mouth.

By all means, if you want to work to change things then work to change them. Casting judgement on a young girl because she wants a certain type of car however isn't going to change anything.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ May 9 2007, 10:45 PM) [snapback]438877[/snapback]</div>

So we'd be better off if everything were a free-for-all? We already have our freedoms curtailed. I can't legally run over somebody with my car. Why should I be allowed to kill somebody with my gasoline exhaust? When is it OK to curtail our freedoms with laws, and when isn't it? And for the record, I work very hard at trying to change laws that make no sense. When we have what amounts to a federal rebate to purchase a Hummer, I've got a pretty big issue with that. Curtailing freedom with laws that protect us is a far cry from funding stupidity that harms us.

I guess compared to you, I'm a space cadet with my head in the clouds. And even with that handicap, I manage to spend my own time doing exactly what you suggest. It is why I am an EV proponent even though I'd rather see fewer vehicles on the road. An EV gives us the choice to keep our vehicular freedom while leaving a smaller footprint.

Driving a huge SUV for image stomps all over my freedom - so apparently my freedom isn't as important as image.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ May 9 2007, 10:25 PM) [snapback]438867[/snapback]</div>

Is it? If she is polluting the air I breath is that not a form of injustice? Your arguement is the same used for land rights lobbyists. "I paid for the land so I can do whatever I want on it". Communities do not work that way if they are to last in the long term, history has shown us that again and again.

I never stated there was one right way to live. Check my sig below. I advocate and support for diversity in this respect yet when anothers habits negatively effect MY life then I will actively work argainst their habits. It's quit simple. We are all connected in this world and what one person does always effects another. When people stop thinking in mechanistic terms and start thinking systemically all of this will hopefully change but while people continue to think of themselves as seperate from everything else we will have these problems.

Like in the "tragedy of the commons" ~ Garret Hardin, I will not stand aside and let someone else suck up all the resources that I rely on to live just because they feel it's their right to do so if they are so inclined. Do you see the connection here? I don't care if she buys an SUV, that is a minor detail, it is your idealogy that I find troublesome when our continued survival and prosperity revolves around cooperation and sharing, not individuality and hoarding. I'm sorry if this comes cross as angry or mean, I don't know how else to smooth it out.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ May 9 2007, 10:47 PM) [snapback]438877[/snapback]</div>

Interesting choice of comment since it seems you are putting words into MY mouth. I did not accuse you of calling me a "Commie." I was *asking* if you were calling me a Commie. Apparently the answer is no. The comparison to China was what inspired the question.

I have cast no "judgement" on this young girl. I am pointing out how her choice curtails my freedoms. She has the choice to buy what she can afford. She has the choice to pollute all she wants.

Nothing we write here will change anything. This is a discussion forum, and I'm attempting to discuss the issue.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ May 10 2007, 01:56 AM) [snapback]438881[/snapback]</div>

Nobody is dying from gasoline exhaust. People lead longer and healthier lives in this country and in this world than they ever have before and we have more gasoline burning cars than ever before. Cars are becoming more and more efficient and we need to keep aggressively forcing carmakers to make them more efficient. You're comparing wanton murder with the choice of car one drives, thats a ludicrous comparison.

Again with the judgement, when have I ever shown you any rudeness or insulted you in any way? All I have done is disagreed with you, as is my right as most Americans do.

As for driving an SUV for image "stomping on your freedom", like I said part of living in a free society with a free economy is putting up with the decisions other people make effecting your life. Thats the breaks.

 

Look, I'm not saying that everyone should adopt a defeatest attitude and say things are the way they are and they're never going to change. All I'm saying is you can't expect people to change the way they look at things overnight. We have generations of certain types of behaviors in our society that we have to unlearn. We've made good progress already. Its not as cool to drive an SUV as it once was, now its cool to drive a Prius who would have thought that? Cars are getting more and more efficient, we're reversing a lot of the polluting factories in this country, we have all sorts of sources for green energy such as carbon crediting etc. Theres plenty more work to be done, and those of you that have the will and the desire to get that work done should do that. We have to however find a way to get that work done while still staying true to the fundamental framework of our society and we have to resist the urge to look upon people who make choices we disagree with with judgement.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ May 9 2007, 11:06 PM) [snapback]438888[/snapback]</div>

I'm not sure you are correct here. We know that smoking related issues cost us 100 billion anually in medical expenses. Very similar illnesses are caused by burning of fossil fuels and studies have shown higher percentages of young adults with lung leasions in cities with high smog concentrations. Are we really leading healthier lives? There are even some who think that the children of today could be the first generation to have reduced lifespans compared to that of their parents due to air quality, toxins in the water, and food related issues like obesity and malnutrition (highly processed foods).

I agree with you that manufactures are starting to do better but it has a lot to do with market demand as you well know. Keep buying crap and they will continue to sell crap with minor refinements. LOL

When you look at exponetial numbers you can get an idea of who quickly something can get out of control. So just because everything is "somewhat ok" right now doesn't mean "1 minute" later the whole system won't collapse.

Even at a 2.0% growth factor we are still in a bit of trouble.


This is a good one for oil. Each block represents oil required to sustain a 10yr period of consumption with a 7% growth rate.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ May 9 2007, 11:06 PM) [snapback]438888[/snapback]</div>

Well, we're done here if you believe this.

Thousands die from automotive exhaust every year. Many more suffer lung disease that is directly related to automobile exhaust.

Nobody who has studied this disputes it. And this includes car makers and oil companies. Saying that nobody dies from gasoline exhaust is as valid as saying that nobody is dying from cigarette smoke.

So if automobile exhaust doesn't harm us, and our national security is one of those freedoms that I'll have to learn to live without in this society of freedoms that we buy - then I'm out of things to discuss.

My time is WAY better spent finishing my written comment on the CARB ZEV program status report ... that I should have been working on this whole time! Grr. No self control.

And I just saw this:

And here we totally agree. My job is to help people unlearn this crap as quickly as possible - not to judge. This unlearning will not happen overnight, but it also can't happen soon enough.